[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by ferrija1

No one ever said PCs were uglier.

At least not in this thread but I have read comments where people tend to think Macs are more stylish than a "traditional" tower or desktop machine running Windows or something else. In fact I read one article that indicated the attractiveness of the MacBook was one reason people ran Linux on it; so they could run Linux on "cool" looking hardware.

Peace...

[Dyonas]

Originally Posted by namenotfound

Yes a mac is a pc. In fact, Apple made the FIRST PC. It was created by Steve Wozniak for a computer expo. He wanted to show his friends "hey look what I made". This was back when computers were complicated and expensive. What he made was the first PC because it was inexpensive and easy enough for anyone to use.

Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, both friends, then created the Apple computer company.

That's not true, the bit about Wozniak creating it I mean. Xerox made it but abandoned it and pretty much gave it to Apple on a plate. If you can be bothered reading a lot you can view the information in lots of places but a very quick search of "Xerox PC" gave me this link....

http://www.fool.com/news/foth/2000/foth000918.htm

The part I'll quote for you:-

Similarly, Xerox PARC invented modern desktop computing. Windows, icons, mice, pulldown menus, "What You See Is What You Get" (WYSIWYG) printing, networked workstations, object-oriented programming -- the works. Xerox the copier company feared the paperless office and formed a think tank to invent it before anybody else could, but once its commandos had succeeded, it simply couldn't bring itself to disrupt its core business of making copiers.

Xerox could have owned the PC revolution, but instead it sat on the technology for years. Then, in exchange for the opportunity to invest in a hot new pre-IPO start-up called "Apple," the Xerox PARC commandos were forced -- under protest -- to give Apple's engineers a tour and a demonstration of their work. The result was the Apple Macintosh, which Microsoft later copied to create Windows.

[ferrija1]

Well of course it is an opinion, but most/many people think of Macs are more stylish.

[macfan777]

Originally Posted by kickback999

...But truthfully pc means a Linux pc too, which is far superior to a mac with osx...

I'd question that. They both run on a UNIX core, but while Linux has come a LONG way, it's still not very refined. It's far too "geeky" for the general public, even the easier-to-use distros. I personally run Fedora 8 on my old XP box as a dual-boot, and I have a Fedora 9 VM on my Mac, and although they're good, OS X is far superior.
Regardless, any Linux distro is better than any Windows version.

Originally Posted by kickback999

...you can install osx on a normal pc...

Not legally.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by Dyonas

That's not true, the bit about Wozniak creating it I mean. Xerox made it but abandoned it and pretty much gave it to Apple on a plate. If you can be bothered reading a lot you can view the information in lots of places but a very quick search of "Xerox PC" gave me this link....

Thanks for that link. I read that quote to mean Xerox created the desktop computing technology but didn't actually produce a personal computer nor did they go to market with it, as Apple did. Or am I missing something?

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by IMAntiSym1

while Linux has come a LONG way, it's still not very refined. It's far too "geeky" for the general public, even the easier-to-use distros.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Linux isn't that "geeky" these days and some might argue modern desktop environments offer as intuitive a computing experience as Windows or OS X (personal preferences not withstanding).

Peace...

[pelokwin]

tomdkat,
I would say that IMAntiSym1 should have said," Linux is seen as too geeky for the general public" but given a chance to play they would find it very appeling

[macfan777]

True, but when you see people every day who still don't know how to use tabbed browsing after three years, it's too geeky. Sorry if I wasn't specific, what I meant was that it's not for the general public as in people who basically don't know how to really use a computer and end up calling a relative to constantly "fix" them. (the example that comes to mind here was someone's grandparents had a Mac and called him several times a week to "fix" their computer, which had slowed down drastically - every single time, he simply quit the huge number of running applications that they had forgotten to quit. That went on for a long time, and the last I heard, they still didn't know the difference between Close and Quit. For these people, who make up a fairly large portion of computer users I have seen, Linux would be somewhat intimidating.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by pelokwin

tomdkat,
I would say that IMAntiSym1 should have said," Linux is seen as too geeky for the general public" but given a chance to play they would find it very appeling

Fair enough.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by IMAntiSym1

True, but when you see people every day who still don't know how to use tabbed browsing after three years, it's too geeky.

That's not a Linux issue, that's a general computer use issue. In the Linux forum, there was a thread started by someone who wanted to try Linux out but he was "scared" he would have to use the command line for just about everything. After getting his system installed and running, I'm not sure how much time, if any, he's had to spend at the command line at all.

I do understand the perceptions about Linux but my point is those perceptions have quickly been diminished, in reality, even though they are still widely held by many.

Sorry if I wasn't specific, what I meant was that it's not for the general public as in people who basically don't know how to really use a computer and end up calling a relative to constantly "fix" them.

I disagree with this since I consider Windows and Mac OS X to be in the exact same boat.

(the example that comes to mind here was someone's grandparents had a Mac and called him several times a week to "fix" their computer, which had slowed down drastically - every single time, he simply quit the huge number of running applications that they had forgotten to quit. That went on for a long time, and the last I heard, they still didn't know the difference between Close and Quit. For these people, who make up a fairly large portion of computer users I have seen, Linux would be somewhat intimidating.

I actually support a fair number of the kind of people you describe above and most of their "fear" of Linux is simply "fear of the unknown". Case in point: my dad is a long time MS Office user, Excel in particular. He's one of the folks who refers to a spreadsheet as an "Excel". He bought a new machine and was gonna install an old copy of MS Office he had laying around until I talked him into trying out OpenOffice, something which he had never seen. He was a bit leary at first but once he saw it and tried it out, he found he likes it and hasn't mentioned MS Office since.

Instead of IE, he uses Seamonkey as his default browser. On another machine he bought, I easily got him to try out Opera (he gave NO pushback at all) and gave it a 6-month trial before deciding he likes Seamonkey better. These days, Linux really isn't any more difficult to learn or master than Windows but I'll still give a slight edge to OS X being more intuitive (in general).

Peace...

[Dyonas]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Thanks for that link. I read that quote to mean Xerox created the desktop computing technology but didn't actually produce a personal computer nor did they go to market with it, as Apple did. Or am I missing something?

Peace...

Hmm that's a point, I'm pretty sure they created it though. I found this on Wikipedia which probably explains it better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star

The main part of interest would be the top and introductory paragraph.

The Star workstation, officially known as the 8010 Star Information System, was introduced by Xerox Corporation in 1981. It was the first commercial system to incorporate various technologies that today have become commonplace in personal computers, including a bitmapped display, a window-based graphical user interface, icons, folders, mouse, Ethernet networking, file servers, print servers and e-mail.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by Dyonas

Hmm that's a point, I'm pretty sure they created it though. I found this on Wikipedia which probably explains it better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star

The main part of interest would be the top and introductory paragraph.

Thanks for that link. As you point out, the introductory paragraph certain does mention the technology that is now part of PCs, however it also states this about the Xerox Star:

The Star workstation, officially known as the 8010 Star Information System, was introduced by Xerox Corporation in 1981. It was the first commercial system to incorporate various technologies that today have become commonplace in personal computers, including a bitmapped display, a window-based graphical user interface, icons, folders, mouse, Ethernet networking, file servers, print servers and e-mail.

then the article goes on to state (in the "Star" section):

The competitive landscape of the era was dominated by costly mainframes and minicomputers equipped with dumb terminals that time-shared processing time of the central computer. On the other side of the spectrum, personal computers were simplistic, with limited processing power and the inability to communicate with other systems. Xerox saw a niche somewhere in between with a distributed processing architecture – smart workstations with centralized file and peripheral sharing.

and lastly

The Xerox Star was not originally meant to be a stand-alone computer, but to be part of an integrated Xerox "personal office system" that also connected to other workstations and network services via Ethernet. Although a single unit sold for $16,000, a typical office would have to purchase at least 2 or 3 machines along with a file server and a print server. Dropping $50,000 to $100,000 for a complete installation was not an easy sell.

Those three quotes (along with other content in the article) read to me that the Xerox Star was the first computer to employ the graphical oriented technologies commonly found in modern PCs but the Xerox Star was also competing with other PCs that didn't offer the graphical interface and the other things the Star offered.

In other words, Xerox didn't position the Star as a PC.

Peace...

[Dyonas]

Aha! I tip my hat to you sir, I guess I was thinking and misread thinking he said Apple created the whole idea whereas he was saying (correctly according to the article and parts you quote) they created the first PC.

[buck52]

Mac will play second fiddle to PC/Windows until they make or come up with more/better software...

I recently bought a mac laptop and it will do nothing that I want it to do... the software is not available...

I was mislead and made a bad assumption... very disapointing

I have wasted much time on the phone with Nikon only to find out that Camera control pro 2 will not work on a mac and have done the same with Garmin and Delmore only to find out that none of their map programs are mac compatible...


why would anyone own a mac...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by buck52

Mac will play second fiddle to PC/Windows until they make or come up with more/better software...

Who is "they"?

Peace...