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Would you support a WAR ! on Iraq ?


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View Poll Results: Would you support a WAR !! on Iraq ?
YES 71 44.94%
NO 79 50.00%
Unsurel 8 5.06%
Voters: 158. You may not vote on this poll

 
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LANMaster's Avatar
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19-Feb-2003, 04:21 PM #391
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19-Feb-2003, 04:59 PM #392
Quote:
Originally posted by DNeurococo:
Of course, Buckley doesn’t even bother to dream up explanations for the political position of the people of Italy, Spain, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, etc. - - I guess his article would have been way too long.
Unfortunately for Buckley, France (who once, in a similar mood of pique, advised the U.S. not to get entangled in Vietnam) cannot just be ignored. Neither can the many other countries that oppose this war. The U.S. is obligated under law (the “highest law of the land”) to honor treaties ratified by Congress - - such as the U.N. treaty - - which obligates the U.S. to refrain from using military force as a means of settling differences.
Very easy DN, because Poland, Italy, Denmark, Hungary don't matter. There are just as many countries who support the war. The reality is that if the UN was formed today France would, at best, have a secondary role. No more sitting on the UN Security Council. France barely has the power to assert its military beyond its borders (supporting a socialist form of government will do that to you). It has in the past and it will in the future rely on its Anglo-Saxon relatives to pull its collective arse out of the fire.

"Law of the Land", whose "land"? Treaties ratified by the Senate (not Congress) are subject to repeal at the whim of the Senate. The "highest law of the land" DN, in the US of A, is called the United States Constitution. You remember that document DN, the one you want to subjugate to the New World Order called socialism. We are not, thank Valley's God, subject to the World Government you socialists salivate for.

Buckley pretentious? What the hell does that make Chomsky? An egomaniac? Oh yeah, I forgot, that's correct
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19-Feb-2003, 08:05 PM #393
Quote:
Originally posted by gbrumb:
What the hell does that make Chomsky? An egomaniac?
"United States, Israel and Turkey are the real 'axis of evil'"

--Noam Chomsky

How about we just call him "maniac"? The man lost any semblence of sanity years ago!

Last edited by Mulderator : 19-Feb-2003 08:10 PM.
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20-Feb-2003, 12:57 PM #394
Arrow Bon Jour, Y'all - - the Eyes of Texas are Upon You!
GB - - Well, saying that other countries “don’t matter” is just the type of shoot-from-the-hip cowboy philosophy that has a lot of the world opposing us. It also has these “unimportant foreigners” looking the other way and keeping quiet when they see someone plant a bomb near a military US base. I still remember when analysts had contempt for the strength and importance of the Vietnamese - - ask anyone in “Ho Chi Minh City” (formerly known as “Saigon”). As Chalmers Johnson has noted, like the Roman empire, the enemies we are creating today will eventually unite to bring about our destruction.

And if there really are just as many counties that support the war, you won’t mind leaving the final decision on Iraq to the U.N. now, will you?

It was the U.S. Constitution that I was citing when I noted that treaties are the highest law of the land: “This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; . . .” (Article VI, Clause 2).

The fact that the Senate CAN repeal a treaty is irrelevant. If and when such a repeal actually DOES take place, I will abide by that decision. Meanwhile, the treaty is the highest law, and Bush is obliged to follow it. So, you see, we ARE “subject to the World Government” we socialists love so much, at least in such matters that are covered by the U.N. Treaty, and the Constitution says so.

Buckley’s discussion of France’s military power is disingenuous at best. Surely Buckley is smart enough to know that the U.S. is mainly interested in France’s POLITICAL support, and actual size of the military effort is not important. If France were to declare support for US policy and park the “accident prone” Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf, the US would be deliriously happy and commentators such as Buckley would talk about what a wonderful contribution France was making.

Read your history (it’s all been done before). LBJ was trying to get Harold Wilson to send some British troops into Vietnam to get killed. The actual MILITARY contribution was unimportant, and LBJ said so in plain words. The goal was to gild naked aggression with a patina of legitimacy by having a token British force fight (and die) by our side. The military angle didn’t come into it, and doesn’t in the present case of France and Iraq.

And - - even though France’s military strength is really not relevant - - I’d like to note that France is not as weak as Buckley makes her out to be. While no match for the U.S., France is after all, a nuclear power and could lay Iraq to waste all by herself. France also possesses modern conventional military equipment that is certainly on par with or exceeds the forces of Iraq.

Recall that it was a second-hand French Exocet missile that put a huge hole in the U.S.S. Stark, killing several U.S. servicemen and nearly sending the Stark to Davey Jone’s Locker. I wouldn’t wave that off as “unimportant”.

P.S. BTW, Buckley referred to France being “brilliantly examined by the Strategic Forecasting Intelligence unit of Texas.”

O.K. now . . . the Strategic Forecasting Intelligence unit - - of TEXAS? Does Texas have it's own foreign policy now? Never heard of that particular group. Seems like a group of self-proclaimed geniuses to me - - like the Michigan Militia.

In any case, exactly what article was Buckley referring to? I went to the site and didn’t see anything that seemed relevant. Perhaps the articles change at the site from day to day. But, I would be interested to know what article Buckley was speaking of (if you know yourself).

Last edited by DNeurococo : 20-Feb-2003 01:35 PM.
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20-Feb-2003, 01:24 PM #395
Re: Bon Jour, Y'all (Texas welcomes you)
Quote:
Originally posted by DNeurococo:
GB - - It was the U.S. Constitution that I was citing when I noted that treaties are the highest law of the land: “This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; . . .” (Article VI, Clause 2).

The fact that the Senate CAN repeal a treaty is irrelevant. If and when such a repeal actually DOES takes place, I will abide by that decision. In the mean time, the treaty is the highest law, and Bush is obliged to follow it. So, you see, we ARE “subject to the World Government” we socialists love so much, at least in such matters that are covered by the U.N. Treaty, and the Constitution says so.
DN.........Allow me to be sure. Its your position that treaties entered into are equal to the US Constitution when it concerns US citizens? Is that your position? If so you have all but abdicated(sp?) your citizenship. DN....treaties exists solely because the US Constitution allows them; it is the higher authority which allows them to be made and entered into. The Bill of Rights can not be made subject to some treaty nor can a President or the Senate subjugate the US to some foreign power.

No where do I say “unimportant foreigners” . Do not attempt to put words in my mouth. The countries you cited don't have veto power and you know that's what I meant. Further, you incorrectly state "that is why the world opposes us" is also disingenuous. The world doesn't opposes us; we are not standing alone and you know that.

The fact France has nuclear weapons means nothing unless France is going to use them, which it isn't. The reality is that France has the ability to wage a modern war for about a day. As far as being an economic power, that to, like its former military glory, has faded into the past. I repeat myself, if the UN was created today France would not be seated at the table with the US, England, Russia and China.
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20-Feb-2003, 01:42 PM #396
Treaties are the supreme law of the land and are therefore at least equal with any laws in the Constitution, if not superior to them (read article VI, Clause 2).

The Constitution is only higher in the sense that it retains the power for the Senate to repeal the Treaty. But, what of it? Laws in the Constitution itself can be repealed as well. BUT UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THE TREATY IS REPEALED, it is the highest law of the land and the Constution itself says so.

You said that "Poland, Italy, Denmark, Hungary don't matter". The difference between someone who doesn't matter and someone who is unimportant escapes me.

Also, I wrote that arrogant policy "has a lot of the world opposing us." I didn't say the whole world opposes us.


P.S. Sorry - - I just HAD to change the title of my previous post - - I thought it was much funnier.

Last edited by DNeurococo : 20-Feb-2003 02:01 PM.
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20-Feb-2003, 02:04 PM #397
interesting article..
Found this article while looking for something else...just wondered if it's true...it's pdf file, so you need acrobat reader...
http://www.internationalanswer.org/p...qfactsheet.pdf

comments...
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20-Feb-2003, 03:28 PM #398
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20-Feb-2003, 03:29 PM #399
Sorry Rhett, but anyone with half a brain (exclude the Democrats here) could tell you that the artcile you posted is again some lunatic spouting off his/her opinion with no real factual information. Citing a newspaper is as factual as saying my 3 year old daughter never tells a lie. Until she is old enough (hence the maturity factor here), she'll say what she can to get her way. (this isn't meant to be geared towards you, I'm just adding to the post) These people and apparently other people of the US don't realize how much of a threat Iraq is, because just about everyone's opinion in the US is based off of the media. The media at best only has half the story correct (if that much), to include some of the more reliable sources. Does this mean that most peoples views are eskewed, hell yes it does. Why? The media doesn't have any more access to information than the average citizen, most citizens however, don't leave their homes on a treck to find such info. The media can REACH more places, but don't get any more information than what is allowed. This isn't hearsay it is reality. Every time I have gone off to fight somewhere, I'm amazed at the huge difference at what our intelligence KNOWS, and what the media GUESSES at. Now, we can't just go and spout off every little secret we know, no matter how much the average citizen wants to know. There is too much to lose if we do that. IS Iraq a threat to the US? Directly, no. Indirectly, more than you could imagine. Would you rather wait to see if Saddam will just want to be left alone to be a peacful nation, let me move to an uncharted island way far from here first, so I don't become dead like the rest of the idiots will. I'm not saying trust me, I know what I'm talking about, I'm saying trust your government, because they do know what they're talking about.
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20-Feb-2003, 03:40 PM #400
Cool Pave FE
I didn't say if I agree or disagree, I just ask for comments !

As for the amount of brains I have......Just enough to straddle the fence on these useless political debates and laugh at the slanted responses made by BOTH sides... ...carry on !...Rhett
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20-Feb-2003, 03:50 PM #401
“ . . . trust your government, because they do know what they're talking about.”

Just like they knew what they were talking about when they said they would win in Vietnam?

To get back to France, here is an interesting article:

Cheese-eating surrender monkeys, eh?
By Molly Ivins
Creators Syndicate

We have been enjoying a lovely little spate of French-bashing here lately. Jonah Goldberg of National Review, who admits that French-bashing is "shtick" (as it is to many American comedians), has popularized the phrase "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" to describe the French.

It gets a lot less attractive than that.

George Will saw fit to include in his latest Newsweek column this joke: "How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? No one knows, it's never been tried."

That was certainly amusing.

One million, four hundred thousand French soldiers were killed during World War I. As a result, there weren't many Frenchmen left to fight in World War II. Nevertheless, 100,000 French soldiers lost their lives trying to stop Adolf Hitler.

On behalf of every one of those 100,000 men, I would like to thank Mr. Will for his clever joke. They were out-manned, out-gunned, out-generaled and, above all, out-tanked. They got slaughtered, but they stood and they fought. Ha-ha, how funny.

In the few places where they had tanks, they held splendidly.

Relying on the Maginot Line was one of the great military follies of modern history, but it does not reflect on the courage of those who died for France in 1940. For 18 months after that execrable defeat, the United States of America continued to have cordial diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany.

One of the great what-ifs of history is: What would have happened if Franklin Roosevelt had lived to the end of his last term?

How many wars have been lost in the peace?

For those of you who have not read Paris 1919, I recommend it highly. Roosevelt was anti-colonialist. That system was a great evil, a greater horror even than Nazism or Stalinism.

If you have read Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild, you have some idea. The French were in it up to their necks.

Instead of insisting on freedom for the colonies of Europe, we let our allies carry on with the system, leaving the British in India and Africa, and the French in Vietnam and Algeria, to everyone's eventual regret.

Surrender monkeys? Try Dien Bien Phu. Yes, the French did surrender, didn't they? After 6,000 French died in a no-hope position. Ever heard of the Foreign Legion? Of the paratroopers, called "paras"? The trouble we could have saved ourselves if we had only paid attention to Dien Bien Phu.

Then came Algeria. As nasty a war as has ever been fought. If you have seen the film Battle of Algiers, you have some idea. Five generations of pieds noirs, French colonialists, thought it was their country.

Charles de Gaulle came back into power in 1958, specifically elected to keep Algeria French. I consider de Gaulle's long, slow, delicate, elephantine withdrawal (de Gaulle even looked like an elephant) one of the single greatest acts of statesmanship in history. Only de Gaulle could have done that.

Those were the years when France learned about terrorism. The plastiquers were all over Paris. The "plastic" bombs, the ones you can stick like Play-Do underneath the ledge of some building, were the popular weapon du jour. It made Israel today look tame. For France, terrorism is "Been there, done that."

The other night on 60 Minutes, Andy Rooney, who fought in France and certainly has a right to be critical, chided the French for forgetting all that sacrifice. But I think he got it backward: The French remember too well.

I was in Paris on Sept. 11, 2001. The reaction was so immediate, so generous, so overwhelming.

Not just the government, but the people kept bringing flowers to the American embassy. They covered the American Cathedral, the American Church, anything they could find that was American.

They didn't just leave flowers -- they wrote notes with them. I read more than 100 of them. Not only did they refer, again and again, to Normandy, to never forgetting, but there were even some in ancient, spidery handwriting referring to WWI: "Lafayette is still with you."

Look, the French are not a touchy-feely people. They're more, like, logical. For them to approach total strangers in the streets who look American and hug them is seriously extraordinary. I got patted so much I felt like a Labrador retriever. I wish Andy Rooney had been there.

This is where I think the real difference is. We Americans are famously ahistorical. We can barely be bothered to remember what happened last week, or last month, much less last year.

The French are really stuck on history. (Some might claim this is because the French are better educated than we are. I won't go there.)

Does it not occur to anyone that these are very old friends of ours, trying to tell us what they think they know about being hated by weak enemies in the Third World?
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20-Feb-2003, 04:20 PM #402
GB - Here are some stats from the "CIA Factbook", which I think you will agree is a slightly better source than those yahoos over at the "Strategic Forecasting Intelligence unit of Texas".

"France today is one of the most modern countries in the world and is a leader among European nations."

Here is France as compared to our "ally", the United Kingdom and France's proposed enemy, Iraq:

France's GDP is $1.51 Trillion
UK GDP is $1.47 Trillion
Iraq GDP is $59 Billion

France's military expenditures are $46.5 Billion
U.K.'s military expenditures are $31.7 Billion
Iraq's military expenditures are $ 1.3 Billion

France manpower (fit for service) is approx. 12 million
U.K. is 12 million
Iraq's is 3 million
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20-Feb-2003, 06:57 PM #403
God DN, thank you so much for quoting Molly Ivins. I've always considered her a communist hack and you're quoting her validates my opinion!!!
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20-Feb-2003, 07:10 PM #404
Thumbs up Who really has the economic Interest in Iraq?
From Stratfor.com

February 19, 2003

Summary

French President Jacques Chirac is a pivotal figure on the international scene, whose views on Iraq are of vital concern. Those views are not driven simply by geopolitics, however. The factors that shape his thinking include a long, complex and sometimes mysterious relationship with Saddam Hussein. The relationship is not secret, but it is no longer as well known as it once was -- nor is it well known outside of France. It is not insignificant in understanding Chirac's view of Iraq.

Analysis

In attempting to understand France’s behavior over the issue of war with Iraq, there is little question but that strategic, economic and geopolitical considerations are dominant drivers. However, in order to understand the details of French behavior, it is also important to understand a not really unknown but oddly neglected aspect of French policy: the personal relationship between French President Jacques Chirac and Saddam Hussein.

The relationship dates back to late 1974, when then-French Premier Chirac traveled to Baghdad and met the No. 2 man in the Iraqi government, Vice President Saddam Hussein. During that visit, Chirac and Hussein conducted negotiations on a range of issues, the most important of these being Iraq’s purchase of nuclear reactors.

In September 1975, Hussein traveled to Paris, where Chirac personally gave him a tour of a French nuclear plant. During that visit, Chirac said, “Iraq is in the process of beginning a coherent nuclear program and France wants to associate herself with that effort in the field of reactors.” France sold two reactors to Iraq, with the agreement signed during Hussein’s visit. The Iraqis purchased a 70-megawatt reactor, along with six charges of 26 points of uranium enriched to 93 percent -- in other words, enough weapons-grade uranium to produce three to four nuclear devices. Baghdad also purchased a one-megawatt research reactor, and France agreed to train 600 Iraqi nuclear technicians and scientists -- the core of Iraq’s nuclear capability today.

Other dimensions of the relationship were decided on during this visit and implemented in the months afterward. France agreed to sell Iraq $1.5 billion worth of weapons -- including the integrated air defense system that was destroyed by the United States in 1991, about 60 Mirage F1 fighter planes, surface-to-air missiles and advanced electronics. The Iraqis, for their part, agreed to sell France $70 million worth of oil.

During this period, Chirac and Hussein formed what Chirac called a close personal relationship. As the New York Times put it in a 1986 report about Chirac’s attempt to return to the premiership, the French official “has said many times that he is a personal friend of Saddam Hussein of Iraq.” In 1987, the Manchester Guardian Weekly quoted Chirac as saying that he was “truly fascinated by Saddam Hussein since 1974.” Whatever personal chemistry there might have been between the two leaders obviously remained in place a decade later, and clearly was not simply linked to the deals of 1974-75. Politicians and businessmen move on; they don’t linger the way Chirac did.

Partly because of the breadth of the relationship Chirac and Hussein had created in a relatively short period of time and the obvious warmth of their personal ties, there was intense speculation about the less visible aspects of the relationship. For example, one unsubstantiated rumor that still can be heard in places like Beirut was that Hussein helped to finance Chirac’s run for mayor of Paris in 1977, after he lost the French premiership. Another, equally unsubstantiated rumor was that Hussein had skimmed funds from the huge amounts of money that were being moved around, and that he did so with Chirac’s full knowledge. There are endless rumors, all unproven and perhaps all scurrilous, about the relationship. Some of these might have been moved by malice, but they also are powered by the unfathomability of the relationship and by Chirac’s willingness to publicly affirm it. It reached the point that Iranians referred to Chirac as “Shah-Iraq” and Israelis spoke of the Osirak reactor as “O-Chirac.”

Indeed, as recently as last week, a Stratfor source in Lebanon reasserted these claims as if they were incontestable. Innuendo has become reality.

Former French President Valery Giscard d’Estaing, who held office at the time of the negotiations with Iraq, said in 1984 that the deal “came out of an agreement that was not negotiated in Paris and therefore did not originate with the president of the republic.” Under the odd French constitution, it is conceivable that the president of the republic wouldn’t know what the premier of France had negotiated -- but on a deal of this scale, this would be unlikely, unless the deal in fact had been negotiated between Chirac and Hussein in the dark and presented as a fait accompli.

There is some evidence for this notion. Earlier, when Giscard d’Estaing found out about the deal -- and particularly about the sale of 93 percent uranium -- he had ordered the French nuclear research facility at Saclay to develop an alternative that would take care of Iraq’s legitimate needs, but without supplying weapons-grade uranium. The product, called “caramel,” was only 3 percent enriched but entirely suitable to non-weapons needs. The French made the offer, which Iraq declined.

By 1986, Chirac clearly had decided to change his image. In preparation for the 1988 presidential elections, Chirac let it be known that he never had anything to do with the sale of the Osirak reactor. In an interview with an Israeli newspaper, he said, “It wasn’t me who negotiated the construction of Osirak with Baghdad. The negotiation was led by my minister of industry in very close collaboration with Giscard d’Estaing.” He went on to say, “I never took part in these negotiations. I never discussed the subject with Saddam Hussein. The fact is that I did not find out about the affair until very late.”

Obviously, Chirac was contradicting what he had said publicly in 1975. More to the point, he also was not making a great deal of sense in claiming that his minister of industry – who at that time was Michel d’Ornano -- had negotiated a deal as large as this one. That is true even if one assumes the absurd, which was that the nuclear deal was a stand-alone and not linked to the arms and oil deals or to a broader strategic relationship. In fact, d’Ornano claimed that he didn’t even make the trip to Iraq with Chirac in 1974, let alone act as the prime negotiator. Everything he did was in conjunction with Chirac.

In 1981, the Israelis destroyed the Iraqi reactor in an air attack. There were rumors – which were denied -- that the French government was offering to rebuild the reactor. In August 1987, French satirical and muckraking magazine, “Le Canard Enchaine” published excerpts of a letter from Chirac to Hussein -- dated June 24, 1987, and hand-delivered by Trade Minister Michel Noir -- which the magazine claimed indicated that he was negotiating to rebuild the Iraqi reactor. The letter says nothing about nuclear reactors, but it does say that Chirac hopes for an agreement “on the negotiation which you know about,” and it speaks of the “cooperation launched more than 12 years ago under our personal joint initiative, in this capital district for the sovereignty, independence and security of your country.” In the letter, Chirac also, once again, referred to Hussein as “my dear friend.”

Chirac and the government confirmed that the letter was genuine. They denied that it referred to rebuilding a nuclear reactor. The letter speaks merely of the agreements relating to “an essential chapter in Franco-Iraqi relations, both in the present circumstances and in the future.” Chirac claimed that any attempt to link the letter to the reconstruction of the nuclear facility was a “ridiculous invention.” Assuming Chirac’s sincerity, this leaves open the question of what the “essential chapter” refers to and why, instead of specifying the subject, Chirac resorted to a circumlocution like “negotiation which you know about.”

Only two possible conclusions can be drawn from this letter: Chirac either was trying, in the midst of the Iran-Iraq war and after his denial of involvement in the first place, to rebuild Iraq’s nuclear capability, or he wasn’t. And if he wasn’t, what was he doing that required such complex language, clearly intended for deniability if revealed? No ordinary state-to-state relationship would require a combination of affection, recollection of long history and promise for the future without mentioning the subject. If we concede to Chirac that it had nothing to do with nuclear reactors, then the mystery actually deepens.

It is unfair to tag Chirac with the rumors that have trailed him in his relations with Hussein. It is fair to say, however, that Chirac has created a circumstance for breeding rumors. The issues raised here were all well known at one time and place. When they are laid end-to-end, a mystery arises. What affair was being discussed in the letter delivered by Michel Noir? If not nuclear reactors, then what was referenced but never mentioned specifically in Chirac’s letter to his “dear friend” Hussein?

Whatever the answer, it is clear that the relationship between Chirac and Hussein is long and complex, and not altogether easy to understand. That relationship does not, by itself, explain all of France's policies toward Iraq or its stance toward a war between the United States and Iraq. But at the same time, it is inconceivable that this relationship has no effect on Chirac's personal decision-making process. There is an intensity to Chirac's Iraq policy that simply may signify the remnants of an old, warm friendship gone bad, or that may have a different origin. In any case, it is a reality that cannot be ignored and that must be taken into account in understanding the French leader’s behavior.
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20-Feb-2003, 11:04 PM #405
Quote:
George Will saw fit to include in his latest Newsweek column this joke: "How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? No one knows, it's never been tried."
Now that's funny!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the facts about France and England DN. One big difference, the English tend to win wars, the French, well they rely on the English.
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