although I do not back Arafat and his freak army

I feel that the Isrealies are somewhat guilty of wrongs also!

Sharon should be removed also

But who replaces him? Sheesh

ISREAL PRACTICES STATE TERROR AND SHARON EXPRESSES HIS PRIDE OF COMMITTING WAR CRIMES AGAINST PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights, Gaza
July 23, 2002
The Palestinian Center for Human Rights, Gaza

Israeli belligerent occupying forces have committed another war crime against Palestinian civilians late yesterday night, when an Israeli F-16 fighter jet attacked an apartment building in a highly populated area in Gaza City, killing 15 Palestinian civilians, including 9 children. Most of the more than 70 wounded were women and children. According to information obtained by PCHR, among those killed were two women and their five children, a father and his child, and Sheikh Salah Shehada, his wife, daughter and bodyguard. Statements made by the Israeli occupying forces, asserted that the purpose of the attack was the assassination of Hamas leader, Sheikh Salah Mustafa Shehada, 49, from Beit Hanoun.

At approximately 23:55 on Monday, 22 July 2002, an Israeli F-16 fighter jet launched a missile at a 150-square-meter, two-story apartment building located in the densely populated al-Daraj neighborhood in Gaza city. Sheikh Salah Shehada, who is wanted by the Israeli occupying forces, and his family were living on the upper floor of the building. The missile directly hit the apartment building, totally destroying it and one other house. Four other homes sustained serious damage. Fifteen Palestinian civilians, including 9 children, the youngest of whom was only 2-months-old, were killed. Two of the wounded are in a critical condition.

Those killed were:

- Iman Hassan Matar, 27, killed together with her 3 children: - Ra'ed Matar, 1½ ; - Mohammed Ra'ed Matar, 4; - Diana Ra'ed Matar, 5; - Muna Fahmi al-Hweiti, 30, killed together with her 2 children: - Subhi Mahmoud al-Hweiti, 4½ ; - Mohammed Mahmoud al-Hweiti, 6; - Diana Rami Matar, 2 months; - Alaa' Mohammed Matar, 11; - Mohammed Mahmoud al-Shawa, 40, killed together with his child: - Ahmed Mohammed al-Shawa, 4; and - Sheikh Salah Mustafa Shehada, 49; - Leila Safira, 45, his wife; - Iman Salah Shehada, 15, his daughter; and - Zaher Nassar, 37, his bodyguard.

This was the second time in one week that the Israeli occupying forces have used F-16 fighter jets to attack homes in highly populated areas in the Gaza Strip, in a bid to assassinate individual Palestinian activists. The Israeli forces have stepped up the excessive and disproportionate use of force once again. These latest attacks have set a grave precedent. On 14 July 2002, an Israeli F-16 fighter jet attacked a 3-story house in Khan Yunis, in an attempt to assassinate one of its residents wanted by the Israeli occupying forces. He survived the assassination attempt but the house was destroyed.

PCHR once again expresses its grave concern about Israel's ongoing and escalating violations of international human rights and humanitarian law against Palestinian civilians, including war crimes. PCHR considers that the failure of the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention to take concrete steps to stop these crimes serves only to encourage Israel and its occupying forces to commit more war crimes and other violations against Palestinian civilians and their property. The cover provided for Israel by the USA, the US deliberate obstruction of the enforcement of the international humanitarian law, the conspiracy of silence by European countries towards war crimes committed against Palestinian civilians, have all effectively put Israel above international law, allowing it to act with total impunity. PCHR reminds the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention of:

1. Their obligation under Article 1 of the Convention to ensure respect for the convention in all circumstances; and 2. Their obligation under Article 146 of the Convention to search for and to prosecute those responsible for grave breaches, namely war crimes, of the Convention.


Not my opinion , just another way to look at it!
Wrongs are being dealt out on both sides?

what about the innocent people?
Are they gaining any ground in this battle?

[Wino]

Originally posted by LANMaster:
He's a large part of the hatred.

Starting at the bottom and working up hasn't worked - so starting at the top and working down may. Arafat needs to go out feet first with his sandles on.

[DNeurococo]

Will the Israelis get something worse than Arafat? Quite likely. When they labored so hard to undermine the PLO and Arafat, they wound up with Hamas.

Like it or not, with all of his faults, Arafat is the person you need to deal with. The Arab League in 1974 recognized the PLO and Arafat as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people”. Arafat spoke before the UN General Assembly when Palestine was given observer status. Arafat represented Palestine when he shook hands with Rabin in the 1993 Peace agreement. He was awarded the Nobel prize in 1994, and was elected president of the Palestinian Authority in 1996.

This is not to say that Arafat is without fault, but remember that even Nixon dealt with Mao Tse Tung and Bush is presently dealing with North Korea’s Kim Chong-il.

The FOX poll shows only “expel” not “execution”, and I presume it was taken in the United States. Virtually, the whole world condemns this idea. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has spoken out against it on behalf of the UN, and leaders of various countries have as well. Even the US has given out a luke-warm opposition, mumbling something about how it “is not a good idea” while saying they understand Israel’s anger. It is virtually the whole world telling Israel to stop.

Trying to solve political problems by killing your opposition will never work in the long run.

#$DN

[Wino]

Trying to solve political problems by killing your opposition will never work in the long run.

Ok, how about in the short run?

Nothing else has worked - and it's been a pretty long run to date. Eliminating Arafat is worth the risk IMHO.

you may get rid of the top but the foundation is still intact
These people have a deep seated hatred for one another!
If the land was given back
would they still kill each other?
to stop this the people must change also and there ideals
It will help to get rid of both Sharon and Arafat
but our hand in it has enraged the Muslim community ect.
How can they change there hatreds and grudges ect.?
It takes generations to forget!

Sad Sad Sad


Any ground is better than none or going the other way!

[DNeurococo]

This issue has actually come up before. At that time, even Israel itself condemned the idea==>


Monday, 23 July 2001 12:32 (ET)

Israel to look into Arafat murder ad
By SAUD ABU RAMADAN

GAZA, July 23 (UPI) -- Israel's attorney general on Monday said he would consider opening a criminal investigation into an advertisement that urged anyone who had the opportunity to murder Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, the Haaretz newspaper reported.

The paper said that a leader of a group called Zo Artzeinu, Moshe Feiglin, and three movement colleagues signed the advertisement, published in the Makor Rishon newspaper by the right-wing group.

The ad called on any Israeli to "point your rifle at his (Arafat's) plane when it flies over the Jewish settlement..." The ad also urged members of the Israeli secret service to "open fire immediately at Arafat's convoy whenever driving in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank."

Legal officials said they doubted indictments could actually be submitted against either the Zo Artzeinu members or Makor Rishon's editors. Since a tougher anti-incitement law was recently defeated in the Knesset, said the paper, prosecutors lack the legal tools needed to indict the sponsors of the anti-Arafat message.

But Member of Knesset Ran Cohen from Meretz Party urged Israel Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein to charge both the Zo Artzeinu members and Makor Rishon's editors.

Rubinstein also ordered the Israeli army, the police and the Shin Bet security service to take firm, uncompromising action against "extremist Jewish settlers who harm innocent Arab civilians."

Meanwhile, Rubinstein reportedly convened a secret meeting last week with top security officials to consider ways of clamping down on vigilante actions that harm Palestinian civilians, including women and children, said the paper. Officials at the meeting considered various legal steps against extremists, particularly in the Hebron area, such as banning their entry to flashpoints on the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Ha'aretz said that no decision had been reached regarding the imposition of such restraining orders on Jewish militants.

#$DN

[DNeurococo]

The U.S. has decided to mark the 21st. anniversary of the Sabra-Shatila massacre by vetoing a UN resolution calling for Israel not to harm Arafat.

Palestinian chief peace negotiator Saib Uraikat said the US move could be seen by Israeli leaders as a green light to assassinate Arafat.

This type of thing is a common occurrence. The US is virtually alone in siding with Israel against the rest of the world. For example, the US used its veto to stop a UN resolution asking for international inspectors to monitor the region. In another case the US used its veto to stop a UN resolution calling for Israel to end the building of settlements in occupied territories.

If you wonder why we can't achieve peace, it is because the US is constantly opposed to the world consensus. There is a peace plan available now - - accepted by virtually the whole world. We can't have it because the US won't agree.

#$DN

[columbo]

Originally posted by DNeurococo:
The U.S. has decided to mark the 21st. anniversary of the Sabra-Shatila massacre by vetoing a UN resolution calling for Israel not to harm Arafat.

Palestinian chief peace negotiator Saib Uraikat said the US move could be seen by Israeli leaders as a green light to assassinate Arafat.

This type of thing is a common occurrence. The US is virtually alone in siding with Israel against the rest of the world. For example, the US used its veto to stop a UN resolution asking for international inspectors to monitor the region. In another case the US used its veto to stop a UN resolution calling for Israel to end the building of settlements in occupied territories.

If you wonder why we can't achieve peace, it is because the US is constantly opposed to the world consensus. There is a peace plan available now - - accepted by virtually the whole world. We can't have it because the US won't agree.

#$DN

Didn't Powell state specifically last Sunday that "The United States does not support either the elimination of him or the exile of Mr Arafat [and] the Israeli Government knows that."?

Isn't this veto sending a mixed message?

Does anyone have the specific wording of the resolution?

[bassetman]

Arafat was elected by (I believe) about 85% of the Population there. Bush says he is not "Democratically Elected" and that they deserve a "Democratically Elected" leader. Arafat's reply was that the American people serve the same.
Bush having received only about (I believe) 34% of the votes in the US.

What if Israel didn't like what the US was doing and suggested that assinating Bush was an option?

[LANMaster]

Originally posted by bassetman:
Arafat was elected by (I believe) about 85% of the Population there.

Saddam got 100% of the vote in Iraq.

Bush says he is not "Democratically Elected" and that they deserve a "Democratically Elected" leader. Arafat's reply was that the American people serve the same.
Bush having received only about (I believe) 34% of the votes in the US.

What if Israel didn't like what the US was doing and suggested that assinating Bush was an option?

I have always believed that you do not assasinate the leader of a country unless you are in a state of war (like we are with Iraq)

The US is not (and should not) sanction the assasination of leaders of countries.

That being said, Arafat is NOT the leader of a country. He is the elected leader of an organization of refugees within a soverign and Democratic country (Israel). The PLO is HARDLY a democracy.

How old is Arafat? 80? How much longer could he live? 20 years? And when he dies of old age ... will that create the circumstances for a true cease-fire? I think not.

I do not think the US should be involved in the excization of the cancer that is Yassir Arafat. But I would not fault the Israelis for doing so.

And of course the UN will villify Sharon for such an act.
So I do not feel that it would be a WISE choice for the Israelis, but I can certainly understand the motivation.

[LANMaster]

Originally posted by bassetman:
Paraphrasing ...
.....Bush having received only about (I believe) 34% of the votes in the US.......

Little off topic, but I don't know where you get that 34% figure.

Even the left is claiming Bush won 48% of the popular vote and Gore with 49%.

And here's an article that claims that GWBush may have even won the popular vote.

34% my fanny. I'd like to know what source you got that figure from.

[LANMaster]

Originally posted by columbo:
Didn't Powell state specifically last Sunday that "The United States does not support either the elimination of him or the exile of Mr Arafat [and] the Israeli Government knows that."?

I think so

Isn't this veto sending a mixed message?

I can see how you might read it that way, but I believe that it is simply a question of how Arafat fits into the resolution. I think an examination of the wording is in order.

Does anyone have the specific wording of the resolution?

Not me. I did a search, but I don't think they'll actually publish the resolution until it has actually been submitted for a vote.
(otherwise the wording may be revised)

[pyritechips]

I have always believed that you do not assasinate the leader of a country unless you are in a state of war (like we are with Iraq)

The entire issue can be summed up with this statement. Well said Mike.
Publicly stating that you propose assassinating political leaders is a horrendous concept and a precedent that should not be implimented. And to aruge whether Arafat is the legitimate leader is moot. He is the de facto leader of the Palestinians. Assassinating foreign leaders is a declaration of the abandonnment of diplomacy. That would be a deadly and tragic step backwards in human interaction.

I do not think the US should be involved in the excization of the cancer that is Yassir Arafat. But I would not fault the Israelis for doing so.

You either agree with assassinating political leaders or you don't. You don't think the U.S. should do this but it's OK for someone else to. This is nothing more than irresponsible "Not In My Back Yard" syndrome transplanted into the international political arena.

[LANMaster]

You and I agree on that point, Jim.



Many believe that one reason that Kennedy was assasinated was that he may have tried to assasinate (or have assasinated) Fidel Castro.

The precident is, without question, not one that this country or this administration should support.

Though, I won't be shedding tears if Arafat is done in by the Israelis. However, the point stays the same. If Sharon signs Arafat's assasination contract, then Sharon might likely go the way of Sadat. The US should distance itself from this stance publicly. It would be the honorable and right thing to do, as this administration (throught Colin Powell) has apparently done.