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American savagery in Iraq

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Stoner's Avatar
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26-Sep-2003, 08:14 PM #31
Quote:
Originally posted by Mulder:
Sarge--this thread may possibly help you to understand the same mistake I think your making in the Tricky Dick Cheney thread. Here, you see some articles that clearly attempt to make the US military look as if its out of control and has no concern for the indigenous population of Iraq (or anywhere for that matter). Obviously, you understand these instances to be highly exagerrated and extremely inflammatory.

Keep in mind that the articles you cite and refer to in the Tricky Dick thread are written by the same types of media--people interested in espousing a certain political viewpoint and who have little regard for truth or accuracy.
?

I must be linking to something other than what you see Mulder.
What did you find objectionable in the link of Sarges' post ?
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26-Sep-2003, 08:19 PM #32
This is what I saw:

http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=5257

Soldiers portray Western ideas to Afghan families

By Sgt. Stephanie Hall
September 24, 2003

Maj. Tito S. Martinez, executive officer and Bamian Provincial Rebuilding Team engineeer, uses butcher board to rehash an English lesson taught to a class of Afghani families.
Sgt. Stephanie Hall

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BAMIAN, Afghanistan (Army News Service, Sept. 24, 2003) -- As they approach the small Afghan villa made of mud and straw the U.S. Soldiers are greeted by a mass of smiling faces and shouts of "how are you."

A gathering of five Afghan families greet the Soldiers like old friends, and the young children run up to the Soldiers to grab their hands and lead them into the villa as they proudly show off their English vocabulary.

The sessions began before the Bamian Provincial Reconstruction Team site was officially opened, and was already in place when the team took over, said Maj. Tito S. Martinez, the team's executive officer.

Soon, though, the cultural exchanges will stop. A team of New Zealand Forces officially took over the team's area Sept. 23, said Master Sgt. Mel M. Ramos, who also taught the classes and was the acting sergeant major for the Bamian PRT.

The families say they enjoy it when the Soldiers visit because "they are good people to teach us," said 14-year-old Abdulazime Kazime, one student of the Soldiers.

For several months, Martinez said he took from his personal time to visit the families and continue a tradition stared before him because "it's very invigorating."

"It's good therapy to just leave everything behind for the day, not deal with it, and just play games with children, or teach them," he said.

The teachings also served as a way to integrate new ideas and "pretty much to (help) build the future" of Afghanistan, said Ramos

Each encounter flowed smoothly because this particular group doesn't adhere as strictly to traditional rules as some other families do, so the males in the family allow the females and children to be exposed to western ideas that sometimes contradict their traditional values, said Martinez.

"Very seldom will the (males) show up and monitor what we're doing," he said. "One of the unique things is their trust in us as males going in to teach the young girls, daughters and wives, so we've been lucky that they've put that trust in us and it's worked out so far."

The actual teachings go far beyond the spoken language and add a new aspect to the confined lives of these families, said Martinez.

"It's teaching our culture, our way of thinking (and) our attitude," he said. The Soldiers showed them American food and houses, and even how Americans live, Martinez said.

"We describe and talk about some of our cities; we teach them slang sometimes just to have fun," he added.

Within the lessons, Martinez said "seeds of ambition and goals" are planted in the minds of the village's women.

They tried to expose the ladies to the things American women have accomplished, like being doctors and lawyers, said Martinez.

"Hopefully some of these ladies, some of the younger ones, will be better exposed and have different goals and ambitions than their mothers and grandmothers who have been subjugated and subservient for so long," he said.

Each visit was divided into three parts. The children still too young for structured learning would flock around the Soldiers because they knew they were first in line for the Soldiers' attention. With the children, Martinez said it wasn't about teaching, it was about playing games with them to teach them "motor skills, thinking skills, or just help them with their emotional growth (and) build their confidence."

After playing with the children, the Soldiers would teach an intermediate class to older children. They received homework, reviewed the previous day's homework and taught some basic English grammar and conversation, Martinez said.

"Not to just improve their speaking abilities, but also their conversation and build up their confidence," said Martinez.

In an advanced class, "we got into some heavy grammar, concepts, writing, and conversations," said Martinez. "A lot of those lessons are on butcher board, so every once in a while we would go back and rehash it before I introduce a new concept or something more complex."

Their participation and eagerness to learn demonstrates "(the) family is blessed with a lot of talent, and a lot of brain power," said Martinez. "They realize this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to be associated with so many people from the states with so many different ideas, so they're just trying to capitalize on that and get their family exposed to it."

"If you look at their house, it's basically a fortress," said Martinez. Their whole lives are "within those walls, and the world is very small for them," he said. "They don't have a lot of access to satellite TV, radio, personalities, both celebrities and political, we are exposed to, so when we go there, and especially when we bring somebody else there, we're basically expanding their world beyond those walls they're use to."

Although he and Martinez will no longer be able to teach the families, Ramos said he savors the memory of sharing his experiences with these families who did the same. "I enjoyed (learning) about their daily lives, their way of life and some of the customs that we don't understand, which they'd explain to us," he said.

(Editor's note: Sgt. Stephanie Hall is a journalist with the 4th Public Affairs Detachment in Afghanistan.)


+++++++++++++

Looks like a worthwile effort to me
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26-Sep-2003, 08:52 PM #33
Quote:
Originally posted by Stoner:
?

I must be linking to something other than what you see Mulder.
What did you find objectionable in the link of Sarges' post ?
Nothing--its the posts that Scharwtzy linked to that were objectionable--Sarge linked to a thread here that is complimentary of the US military. I was referring to the fact that the article he posted in the Tricky Dick thread (which implied there was wrongdoing in the Halliburton situation) must be viewed with the same skepticism as I am sure he views the posts by Schwartzy at the outset of this thread. Most articles are intended to inflame emotion, which makes them sell. Few articles have simple facts without editorial hyperbole. So how you react to it depends on which side of the fence you are on.
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26-Sep-2003, 10:21 PM #34
I don't know I heard it said that the american news organizations were fair in reporting the war and related stories

well there is astory in the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...050949,00.html
about an anti-war protest by parents of GIsin Iraq The father of tywo GIs serving in Iraq took out a full page ad in the NYtimes.
Out of curiousity I ran a news.google search on his name to see who has picked up the story. Guardian and Reuters a UK based wire service the chines news service MSNBC and VOA no papers

There is an organization Military families speak out. I suggest you the the searching on this one.
One TV station paired the objecting father of a dead GI in a story about the protest with "Humvee arsonist" just to put him iin a clear perspective.
So the reason that you have to go abroad for news is why
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26-Sep-2003, 10:24 PM #35
Quote:
Originally posted by Mulder:
Sarge--this thread may possibly help you to understand the same mistake I think your making in the Tricky Dick Cheney thread. Here, you see some articles that clearly attempt to make the US military look as if its out of control and has no concern for the indigenous population of Iraq (or anywhere for that matter). Obviously, you understand these instances to be highly exagerrated and extremely inflammatory.

Keep in mind that the articles you cite and refer to in the Tricky Dick thread are written by the same types of media--people interested in espousing a certain political viewpoint and who have little regard for truth or accuracy.
No, Mulder, I am making no mistake. The article that I posted is not "highly exagerrated or extremely inflammatory". It is not me who made those accusations it was Senator Frank Lautenberg and the article came from the Houston Chronicle, which I believe is a Republican "side- of -the- fence" newspaper (I could be wrong).

Quote:
Originally posted by Mulder:
Nothing--its the posts that Scharwtzy linked to that were objectionable--Sarge linked to a thread here that is complimentary of the US military. I was referring to the fact that the article he posted in the Tricky Dick thread (which implied there was wrongdoing in the Halliburton situation) must be viewed with the same skepticism as I am sure he views the posts by Schwartzy at the outset of this thread. Most articles are intended to inflame emotion, which makes them sell. Few articles have simple facts without editorial hyperbole. So how you react to it depends on which side of the fence you are on.
And if you remember me saying in another thread I walk the fence, am on neither side of the fence and am also fully aware of the "hype" that is on both sides of this fence. In most cases I view everything I see or hear with skepticism (its very much part of my personality, I am not a very trusting person). As for the schwartz threads, Im sure there is some truth to them, I dont fully dismiss them but unfortunately we have other priorities. Our troops need its citizens support right now.

What I am beginning to believe about you Mr. Mulder, is that you will defend the honor of the Republicans "by all means necessary" just as much as the Democrats do. Im not saying that is a bad thing, but sometimes being on the top of the fence you can see both sides of the yard.
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27-Sep-2003, 03:54 AM #36
Seems to me that the art of living in peace has been ruined by people simply having too many children.

Obviously war does not work in that it does too much damage and kills people.

The only way I can see of ever stopping this is to reduce the population by family planning, only having one child and nurturing him or her carefully.

As people go to Heaven and the population reduces then it will become calmer and calmer.

Finally we will all be ... able ... to live in peace together and not be killing anyone.

You would not kill your own brother or sister so why kill anyone else?

Remember "Thou shalt not kill?"

"Hergé"
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27-Sep-2003, 10:26 AM #37
Sarge:
I do not know if you are aware that for many years Iworked in the state hospital covering Manhattan.
Also you may not know that there was a group of Viet vets who never were able to return to society. Some as I remember lived in the woods in a almost feral state. I had some patients who were among the NYC homeless. They as a group eschewed the VA and would neither take benefits or services from them.
I remember one in particular who was I believe a college grad and quite articulate.
He said that after an ambush his unit "did a MyLai" shooting randomly and killing a number of woman and children. He stated that he could not rejoin society because of this -"I had the mark of Cain"
He had had therapy from a VA shrink who did not believe that this happened in Vietnam and tried to persuade him that this was a fantasy!
I grieve not only for the dead Iraqis but also for future ex-GIs who will walk around with the "mark of Cain"
I cannot find the reference but recently I read that the army has given only general instructions like you may shoot at anything suspicious, so that instead of being able to feel that he was just following orders the judgement is left to the individual GI to know he had panicked and killed the innocent
Peace
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27-Sep-2003, 12:14 PM #38
Why do these things happen? because "someone" decided in their infallible religious logic that the world should be divided between Heaven and hell, half and half.

As those from hell will do what those from Heaven would not do then hell is likely to win over Heaven and create complete chaos before abandoning the entire planet to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse or Agmageddon.

The Four Horsemen.

1. A religious Pestilence. (Producing too many people.)

2. A drought induced famine. (From producing too many people and not enough food.)

3. The resultant War. (From producing too many people and not enough food.)

4. Death. (The fool.) (From the War because they produced too many people and not enough food.)

See: "Soylent Green"

Armageddon.

When the Sun blows up and the entire thing is turned into a burnt lump of ash.

Alternatively you can have family planning and irrigate the planet by flooding land depressions instead of praying to them and STOP doing ANYTHING which damages the ozone layer.

Flood the Jordan valley in the "hole-i-land" it is the SCIENTIFIC thing to do!

For God's sake!

"Hergé"

Last edited by Hergé : 27-Sep-2003 01:05 PM.
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27-Sep-2003, 01:02 PM #39
The Truth
The scientific Truth ... will ... set you free. So abandon religion NOW and stick to science, using your OWN moral God-Given intelligence instead of being a sheep-like religious follower.

"Hergé"

Freethinking.
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27-Sep-2003, 01:53 PM #40
Quote:
Originally posted by plschwartz:
Sarge:
I do not know if you are aware that for many years Iworked in the state hospital covering Manhattan.
Also you may not know that there was a group of Viet vets who never were able to return to society. Some as I remember lived in the woods in a almost feral state. I had some patients who were among the NYC homeless. They as a group eschewed the VA and would neither take benefits or services from them.
I remember one in particular who was I believe a college grad and quite articulate.
He said that after an ambush his unit "did a MyLai" shooting randomly and killing a number of woman and children. He stated that he could not rejoin society because of this -"I had the mark of Cain"
He had had therapy from a VA shrink who did not believe that this happened in Vietnam and tried to persuade him that this was a fantasy!
I grieve not only for the dead Iraqis but also for future ex-GIs who will walk around with the "mark of Cain"
I cannot find the reference but recently I read that the army has given only general instructions like you may shoot at anything suspicious, so that instead of being able to feel that he was just following orders the judgement is left to the individual GI to know he had panicked and killed the innocent
Peace
Schwartz, This may sound callous and if you do not agree with me then I understand. War is Hell. $h!t Happens. Innocent people die. Murderers rule countries with iron fists. Some people die of starvation while we throw away half a plate of food because we are full. Is it fair? No. It is reality.

Last edited by Sarge : 27-Sep-2003 02:03 PM.
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27-Sep-2003, 02:04 PM #41
Sarge:
1. I am sure if you had shot civiians in a panic your marshal spirit would over come any guilt Good for you You are luckier then some
2. you said:
$h!t Happens. Innocent people die. Murderers rule countries with iron fists.
So you would disagree with the current version of why we went into Iraq?
Hey planes crash into twin towers whats got your a$$ in am uproar

BTW did you actually see combat ?
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27-Sep-2003, 03:18 PM #42
^^

I consiously made the decision not to bring children into this world after watching the horrors of Vietnam.

I say again, having too many children is a recipe for war.

In 1700 the population was 1.5 Billion there followed a "religious" uprising in Poland where people were living in self-imposed "religious" poverty simply by having too many children, i.e. more than two.

Eventually a fanatic shot the Duke of Sarajevo and we had The Great War, WWI , the war to end all wars.

Belgium, designed as a buffer state to prevent warring parties from fighting with each other, was turned into a mud bath.

The "religious" uprising continued apace swelling the population of Europe to breaking point, and, sure enough, WWII erupted as Europe was being additionally invaded from the Middle East where the people were having ... too many children.

They DO grow up you know.

After WWII the population went down from 2.5 Billion to 2.0 Billion.

Now, it is up to 6.0 billion.

Why not have some more children so that they can join in the fighting? It is sure to be a certain recipe for peace.

And all that Jesus wanted people to do was to live in peace.

And his parents now blame President Bush for his death.

It would never have happened if people were not blindly following the "religions" of the bible and fighting in "The Holy Land"

What shall we call it this toilet belief, "A Tale of Two Holes" ?

Sodom and Gomorah?

This is LUNACY!

Between you, you are managing to destroy ... everything that anyone has ever worked for.

And yet the celibacy remains, faithful as ever, (For the MOST part) trying to teach people restraint.

What is wrong with Pastoral living in beautiful countryside made for everyone's enjoyment by Almighty God?

What is wrong with having one Chrsitian Thanksgiving.

Why does everyone want to live in a concrete ghetto?

To become wealthy?

It was ... never ... like this in the early days of the British Empire.

Where did it all go wrong?

No globally applied family planning.

Very little plan for ... peace.

"Religious fanaticism" and fatalism, coupled with "superstition", instead of science.

"And you don't know what you've got 'til its gone."

"They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

And so Lot's wife went shopping at Mothercare and bought a gravestone for her Jesus.

Pathetic! You don't have the first idea of what you are really doing.

I want to live in peace in France so you find out how to live in peace in North America, or go to Australia, it is much safer there.

And STOP killing God's children, for His sake.

Hergé Chattan.
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27-Sep-2003, 09:50 PM #43
Quote:
Originally posted by Hergé:
^^

I consiously made the decision not to bring children into this world after watching the horrors of Vietnam.

I say again, having too many children is a recipe for war.
I suspect Herge that there are a few cynical members here who wish that your parents had subscribed to the same philosophy.
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27-Sep-2003, 09:53 PM #44
^ I'm not cynical...but I have to laugh at that GB!
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28-Sep-2003, 09:42 AM #45
Americans love savagery. They go to the cinema, many of them, to consume their regular diet of it. You see them there licking their popcorn flavoured fingers as the blood and guts spurt everywhere on the screen. It puts smiles on their faces. It is a catharsis for them and helps them cope with the savagery in their every day lives.

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