[EdGreene]

October 27, 2003 New York, NND:
It is obvious to everyone except Dubya and Dick Cheney Iraq and the lies being told by the Bush Adminstration about Iraq will be Dubya's final undoing. Cheney and Dubya thought another Blitzkrieg would pacify the Iraqis. They also discounted the effectiveness of the now growing Iraqi resistance to American occupation.
Day by day, Iraqis grow more confident in their attacks, day by day they see our young American's flesh tearing just as easily as theirs does. Each attack emboldens them; each American death strengthens their resolve.
Its' de jam Vietnam all over again and as the quagmire thickens around the ankles of our troops, the fearful sound of RPGs rip through Iraqi air while Cheney's Halliburton cronies fattens themselves on their ill-gotten gains.
The outright lies told to Americans that took us to an unneeded war, the denials by Bush, Cheney, Powell and others in the Bush administration, won't save Dubya, nor quieten the growing sound of discontent in America as GIs and other Americans keep dying.

Meanwhile, overnight, 45 people died in separate, coordinated attacks that took place on the first day of Rama-boom…err…Rama-doom…Ramadan.

[redalert95]

Yes the attacks are sad but they would be less likly to happen if we actually looked and faught back against those who were doing them.


Yes 45 people died, was it confidence or was it just because it was Ramadan???

[pyritechips]

A few points:

1) It has been claimed by the Whitehouse that the ones doing these attacks are Saddam Hussien loyalists, a disgruntled few. This had proven not to be so. For example the one bomber that was stopped and arrested is Syrian, not Iraqi.

2) It is fact (not opinion) that there was no love lost between Bin Laden/Al-Qaeda and Hussien. Before the American invasion Al-Qaeda was not operating in Iraq with Hussien's blessing. I stated a long time ago (last spring) that any sudden elimination of a world force creates a power vacuum. With Hussien's Regime no longer there to resist, Al-Qaeda and other self-interest groups have been willingly sucked into that vacuum. Before there is one tyrannical power in Iraq; now there are many "loose cannon" factions all vying for power. It resembles Lebanon of the 80's.

3) Re: Terrorist acts in Iraq. A foe, when outnumbered and outgunned, will use any means possible to continue the battle. This is not a moral judgement; it is a historical fact. As long as American and UN troops occupy Iraq they will be targeted by what is called "terrorist" attacks but is nothing more than classical Guerilla warfare. In WWII the French (and other nations') underground carried out precisely these kinds of attacks. They were not called terrorists.

4) Re: Power Vacuum in Iraq. How will the fight go? Easy; look at the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, how we cheered on the brave geurilla fighters who fought back. Also observe how the Soviets left and the country fell into 2 decades of civil war between the many factions that were sucked into the vacuum.

[ComputerFix]

I agree that power vacuums can be problomatic Jim, but is it really a good idea to just shrug and say "could be worse"?

It could also be better.

No qualms ousting some of the worlds most notorious national leaders in favor of what should be an improvement in the past. Does it happen everytime? Unfortunately not, but it is in everyones best interest to try.

(and I say this all on a conceptual level, don't want to "start all over" with ya )


P.S.- there are some who believe that Afghanistan ended up where it went because while we (the US) were all gung ho to help them in their fight, we ran like hell when it came time to deal with the aftermath. The lesson being that it takes more than a war to change such situations, it takes work after the fact too.

[GoneForNow]

Irony of irony but the Washington Post today has an editorial blasting Bush for not waging counter-guerrilla warfare! They opine that the American public is sick of hearing and seeing American soldiers being killed or wounded one by one. The very liberal Washington Post is exhorting the President to go kick arse.

[pyritechips]

The lesson being that it takes more than a war to change such situations, it takes work after the fact too.

Amen and thank you for that - exactly what I have been trying to say since last spring.

I once said that American hadn't won a damn thing once Hussien had been ousted. That was only Step 1 in a very complex issue. My main critique of the effort there is a profound misunderstanding of the people and region and the failure (vis a vis power vacuums and "factions") to learn from past examples. Might does not always make right. Unfortunately, due to event so far, I can't see the Iraqi people, whether ordinary citizens or those aspiring to positions of power in whatever faction, ever accepting American or UN presense.

[ComputerFix]

Maybe not, but that is part of the problem too.

It takes more than "might" and even the "evil leaders" we have here know it. They are insistant on follow thru. So am I, and so are many others. Yet there is amazing opposition to such a concept. Our Sen. Byrd yabbered on about how the "American people were never told they would have to help build!"

Smack!

It takes more than guns Senator.

Whether anyone agreed on step 1 or not, it happened, and trying to bail on steps 2 thru ? is irresponsible, immoral, and just plain.......rude!

The sooner it appears as though we won't be "repeating the past" mistakes, the sooner they can pack their gear and leave.

Blowing up the red cross was not an act of "civil protest", someone is gunning for more than the US. The UN was outright mad at the US and they got hit. Anyone who is not even being questioned as to their humanitarian motive is getting hit.

It would seem that anyone trying to help the Iraqi's have their country again is getting hit!

[pyritechips]

It takes more than "might" and even the "evil leaders" we have here know it. They are insistant on follow thru. So am I, and so are many others. Yet there is amazing opposition to such a concept.

I don't disagree with that but what I don't understand is how it is to be done. The enemy is invisible; you cannot fight what you cannot see.

Bush said there are people that cannot stand the thought of Iraq having electricity and clean water, etc. How naieve! Does he really think that all you have to do is give people the comforts of Western life and they will be placated? That is an excellent example of how much he misunderstands other peoples and lands. You can't win a peoples' hearts by bribing them.

And now Turkey is sending troops into Iraq! What a monumental political disaster! First Bush coured the Kurds in assiting in the invasion now he's inviting in the Turks. Isn't he aware of the long standing emnity between these two groups? Either Bush is a master of Machievellian manouevers or he has been pathetically ill-advised. A Turkish-Kurdish presense can only add to the growing chaos.

I may be naieve but I can see no good coming out of this.

[ComputerFix]

It's not about bribing Jim.

The people are rightfully torqued that they do not have full basic services. Whether the timeframe is realistic is moot, they sit in heat, and don't want to anymore. They have busted sewers, and want them fixed.

We say "we will fix them".

Someone is making a concerted effort to not have that happen.

He is not trying to "win their hearts by bribing", he is trying to give them back what they deserve (electricity and clean water) and someone(s) don't want to have that happen. His statement is right on. Now if you want to talk about why someone would want to do that.....well there you have a conversation!


Turks....bad idea, I agree.

[GoneForNow]

Originally posted by pyritechips:
I don't disagree with that but what I don't understand is how it is to be done. The enemy is invisible; you cannot fight what you cannot see.

Bush said there are people that cannot stand the thought of Iraq having electricity and clean water, etc. How naieve! Does he really think that all you have to do is give people the comforts of Western life and they will be placated? That is an excellent example of how much he misunderstands other peoples and lands. You can't win a peoples' hearts by bribing them.

And now Turkey is sending troops into Iraq! What a monumental political disaster! First Bush coured the Kurds in assiting in the invasion now he's inviting in the Turks. Isn't he aware of the long standing emnity between these two groups? Either Bush is a master of Machievellian manouevers or he has been pathetically ill-advised. A Turkish-Kurdish presense can only add to the growing chaos.

I may be naieve but I can see no good coming out of this.

PC.........IMO your being overall harsh here. Its a myth that you can't fight a guerrilla type conflict with conventional army. The vast majority of these attacks are taking place in and around Baghdad, the majority of the country is calm. I suspect that you will see more and more intervention before the attacks can occur. I also fear that innocent civilians are also going to lose their lives because American counter-guerrilla activities.

They had electricity and water before the war. Funny how American editorials can criticize the Administration for not getting power and water restored quickly but you seem to think we are imposing western comforts! CF remember that discussion with Stoner about air conditioning .

[pyritechips]

I may be being harsh but when you say "Its a myth that you can't fight a guerrilla type conflict with conventional army." I can't think of a good example. Could you supply me with one or two? (this is not sarcasm but a genuine request for information).

you seem to think we are imposing western comforts!

Absolutely not! Don't get me wrong. Recently on a Canadian news report on the issue of pre and post war conditions it was stated that Iraq had the highest standard of living in the region. I am not so uninformed that I believe that Iraqis were living in caves and mud hovels. What I meant by that remark was that Bush, in the news clip, seemed to think that some Iraqis were insufficiently grateful for having basic services restored.

Funny how American editorials can criticize the Administration for not getting power and water restored quickly

Well that doesn't apply to me; I don't watch American news or editorials! I can't get an honest account of event if I watch fascist, Imperialist propaganda!

[ComputerFix]

They had electricity and water before the war. Funny how American editorials can criticize the Administration for not getting power and water restored quickly but you seem to think we are imposing western comforts! CF remember that discussion with Stoner about air conditioning .

[ComputerFix]

Originally posted by pyritechips:

What I meant by that remark was that Bush, in the news clip, seemed to think that some Iraqis were insufficiently grateful for having basic services restored.

I didn't get that impression from Bush's remarks, I got the same impression that you had conveyed above, that there are people who don't want to see basic services restored to the Iraqis. I think there is sufficient basis for the statement, with constant attacks on power stations and generation of just enough paranoia to keep the repair crews away and the gun crews tense.

Though Jack and I got a bit snippy, the "conditions" thread does contain a fair amount of historical data to support this as well. The targets don't seem to have much to do with GI's with stars and stripes on their sleaves, but rather anyone attempting to let the "sun come out after the storm".

It was Iraqi police who died in the carbomb attacks, not US GI's. Powerstations, not barracks. The UN, not a military base. The Red Cross. The hotel full of civilian contractors. Concentrated in Baghdad, not out in "the hills" where small patrols could be easy targets......

Patterns in the chaos.

[RSM123]

PC,

There are indeed few examples of wars successfully won by regular armies against 'guerillas' - but they did occur :

Malayan Emergency 1948 - 1960 : Successfuly conducted by the British. They were able to isolate the guerillas from local suport by engaging in the original 'Hearts and Minds' campaign. And by the simple expedient that the guerillas were primarily composed of ethnic chinese who received considerable logistical support from Mao, but who were viewed as outsiders by many Malays.

Anglo - Boer War 1899 - 1902.Won by deploying over 500,000 troops from the Empire, and engaging in an extremely harsh campaign culminating in farm burning, forced relocation, and concentration camps - though the recent revisionist claim that these campaign were the first such and provided a model for the gulag and subsesequent nazi death camps is false.Not trying to justify them but its still a falsehood.

Furthermore consider guerilla forces in Europe - whether it be the Spanish 'guerillas' fighting Napoleons forces, or the numerous 'resistance' fighters' active in World War Two. I don't think it would credible to assert any of these would ever have been able to throw off the 'yoke of the oppressor' were it not for the contemporaneous events of the wider war in which they were fighting. Even Tito who claimed credit for Yugoslavia being the only country to liberate itself was being somewhat hubristic. 200 hundred Soviet Divisions advancing relentlessly towards Berlin would have weighed rather heavier on the minds of the German General Staff if truth be told.

[EdGreene]

I heard this today: "It's De ja TET, all over again."

We absolutely, positively kicked Charlie's arse all over Vietnam during Tet: but the news media, picking up on the anti-war movement, made Tet seem like a massive defeat for American forces when in fact, "Charlie" lost his Asphidistras.

But disturbingly, this new, recently active and very emboldened "Charlie", might be able to galvanize the rest of Iraq against us. And that is what lost it for us in 'Nam: the thunderous lack of success in our fight for the "hearts and minds" of the Vietnamese people.