[pyritechips]

What's going on here? When does the zeal to fight terrorism turn into terrorism itself? There are some serious questions to be answered and governments should once more be accountable for their action, lest they turn into the kind of states they claim to be fighting. The following is an exerpt from: The following statement was read by Maher Arar in Ottawa on November 4, 2003, less than one month after being released from prison in Syria: (CBC Online news)

"My flight arrived in New York at 2:00 p.m. on September 26th, 2002. I had a few hours to wait until my connecting flight to Montreal.

This is when my nightmare began. I was pulled aside at immigration and taken to another area. Two hours later some officials came and told me this was regular procedure. They took my fingerprints and photographs.

Then some police came and searched my bags and copied my Canadian passport. I was getting worried, and I asked what was going on, and they would not answer. I asked to make a phone call, and they would not let me.

Then a team of people came and told me they wanted to ask me some questions. One man was from the FBI, and another was from the New York Police Department. I was scared and did not know what was going on. I told them I wanted a lawyer. They told me I had no right to a lawyer, because I was not an American citizen."

And from
Deported Terror Suspect Details Torture in Syria By DeNeen L. Brown and Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, November 5, 2003; Page A01

"Officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that the Arar case fits the profile of a covert CIA "extraordinary rendition" -- the practice of turning over low-level, suspected terrorists to foreign intelligence services, some of which are known to torture prisoners.

Steven Watt, a human rights fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights in Washington, said Arar's case raised questions about U.S. counterterrorism measures. "Here we have the United States involved in the removal of somebody to a country where it knows persons in custody of security agents are tortured," Watt said. "The U.S. was possibly benefiting from the fruits of that torture. I ask the question: Why wasn't he removed to Canada?" "

Syria, where use of torture during imprisonment has been documented by the State Department, maintains a secret but growing intelligence relationship with the CIA, according to intelligence experts.


Isn't torture a form of terrorism? Why is the States so cozy with a regime as brutal as the one it so self-righteously disposed of in Iraq? Does the U.S. deal in human trade, selling off people for "intelligence"?

[ComputerFix]

Jim,


By his account, the instance is horrific. However, do not dismiss the possibility that Canada also played a part. He himself stated that much of the information on him could only have come from there. He was a dual citizen, and sent to Syria, despite Canadian presence in the situation. Did the Canadian government say "we don't want him?"


I myself would like to see a full account, on all three sides, and we aren't "cozy" with Syria, BTW. In fact, I wonder when we start heading north from Iraq.

[pyritechips]

You are right: the RCMP (our national police force) has been implicated and there has been calls for an inquiry. Of course the RCMP says it will investigate itself!

I agree that someone in the Canadian government knew about this but between the time he was arrested and sent to Syria, there is no knowledge that the U.S. authorities contacted Canada about this. I suspect skullduggery on both sides and I can't speak for America but I wouldn't put it over the Canadian government to do a little covering up

I find both countries guilty until proven innocent on this one. All this new age cloak and dagger stuff is getting out of hand!

[bassetman]

There is a group of lawyers here in US that have filed a suit again the "Patriot Act" enforcement (the way it is being used).
NPR (or WPR I forget) did a program on it yesterday.

[valley]

I just read about this this morning...from a CBC news source that was questioning the Canadian authorities who went over there and were told by him that he was being tortured, who then ignored his plea for help.

I didnt know that America was implied in the responsibility of it until just now though. I would like answers from both sides too, Jim.

[MyeyesHurt]

>>Of course the RCMP says it will investigate itself!

Silliness! I never knew how much like the U.S. you guys up north are becoming!

[pyritechips]

Silliness! I never knew how much like the U.S. you guys up north are becoming!

It's called economic sanctions.

If a country doesn't comply to America wishes, it lays on boycotts and tarifs to the countries it trades with or cuts funding to poor nations. America has boycotted Cuba for 40 years now; during the war against Iraq it threatened to cut funding to Yemen for not wanting to be in the "Coalition of the Willing".

And no; I am not picking on America. All countries play this geo-political game. Money is as powerful a weapon as cruise missles or cluster bombs.

[plschwartz]

PC
For me Castro is a singular case. He was more than willing to have atomic missles based in Cuba pointed at the US. I expect that the US will normalize trade with Cuba once he goes. By his staying he does show he loves himself more then he loves his country.

[pyritechips]

He was more than willing to have atomic missles based in Cuba pointed at the US

So? Is America the only country allowed to point nukes at whomever it wants? How many American warheads are aimed at Cuba at the moment? At N. Korea? Germany? Japan? I'd love to see an American global nuclear target map. American has how many thousands of nuclear warheads? For sure Russia and China are targeted with the loin's share but that leaves how many thousands more land, air and sea based missiles? I bet there isn't a country on this planet that doesn't have a red X on it.

[ComputerFix]

Originally posted by pyritechips:
You are right: the RCMP (our national police force) has been implicated and there has been calls for an inquiry. Of course the RCMP says it will investigate itself!

I agree that someone in the Canadian government knew about this but between the time he was arrested and sent to Syria, there is no knowledge that the U.S. authorities contacted Canada about this. I suspect skullduggery on both sides and I can't speak for America but I wouldn't put it over the Canadian government to do a little covering up

I find both countries guilty until proven innocent on this one. All this new age cloak and dagger stuff is getting out of hand!

Also remember his account of what happened......

From step 1 nothing was routine, anyone with any familiarity of international travel should have seen that, including him.

This guy was being looked at, and it was known where he was going to be and when, and where he was and when.

Of course there is "no knowledge" Jim, we'll just let the big bad US Govt take the hit.

You think the USG got his information from thin air?


Sounds to me like both our governments thought they had a bad guy, neither one could completely prove it, so neither wanted him in their country.....off to Syria he went. (who, btw, due to dual-citizenship, had the authority and the responsibility to take him)

[pyritechips]

who, btw, due to dual-citizenship, had the authority and the responsibility to take him

I disagree with this based on what he himself heard and said. He overheard the conversation by an American official with the Syrians in which the Syrians refused to take him directly. This is why he was flown to Lebanon, then secretly driven over the Syrian border. This supposedly absolves the American government of any guilt. By an agreement signed by the States in 1994 it is illegal for them to send anyone to any country that is know to use torture.

The second point is that when the American authorities were preparing to deport him they made him indicate on a form the country he preferred to be deported to. He indicated Canada (which makes sense because that is where he has lived for the last 10 years) but he was refused this.

He claims that information was given to the American authorities by Canadian authorities because some of the information was personal and not available to Americans by ordinarly means, such as the lease he had cosigned and which was the only reason he was detained; the person that cosigned for him was under suspicion.

The only link that exists that placed him under suspicion was that he knew the man that cosigned his lease. That man, Abdhullah(sp) Almalki, is also a Canadian citizen and now being held and tortured in Syria. Arar met him when he was there.

[ComputerFix]

How did Almalki get to Syria?

If he (the man in the story) was "forced" on Syria, why would they bother to do anything with him? They had to take him at some point. If just smuggled over the boarder, and they didn't want him, why even bother to go get him at that point? At any point?

Is it common for the United States INS to search Canadian leases as a part of "normal" (define how you wish) immigration checks?

There are just as many holes in his story as our governments.

Something is rotten in Denmark here. The man may be guilty of absolutely nothing, but there are parts being left out by him. Why?

The tourture is highlighted so extensively to play upon emotion. For discussions sake, push it aside. Does the rest of the story make any sense what so ever?

Why him? Why not every other Syrian on the flight? The flight before? After? The "randomness" being purported has more holes than swiss cheese.

Would be interested to know what Almalki (an obvious interest) said about him that caused the focus.

[ComputerFix]

By an agreement signed by the States in 1994 it is illegal for them to send anyone to any country that is know to use torture.

This one gets tossed around often. Think Cuba uses tourture? How about China?

I guess it isn't so simple as that, unfortunately.

[pyritechips]

If he (the man in the story) was "forced" on Syria, why would they bother to do anything with him?

He wasn't forced on Syria. They didn't want to take him directly from the States. That is too overt for the aggreement that the U.S. has with terrorist states. Officially "rendering: doesn't exist. America pretends it doesn't happen so they can't have any overt transfers of people to one of these states.

Is it common for the United States INS to search Canadian leases as a part of "normal" (define how you wish) immigration checks?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

There are just as many holes in his story as our governments.

Something is rotten in Denmark here. The man may be guilty of absolutely nothing, but there are parts being left out by him. Why?

What holes? What parts were left out? Please explain.

The tourture is highlighted so extensively to play upon emotion. For discussions sake, push it aside. Does the rest of the story make any sense what so ever?

No! I shall not push it aside; it is intregal to this issue. And without the torture, why doesn't the story make sense?

Why him? Why not every other Syrian on the flight? The flight before? After? The "randomness" being purported has more holes than swiss cheese.

Why him? Because he was targeted. what randomness are you talking about?

Would be interested to know what Almalki (an obvious interest) said about him that caused the focus.

Like Arar said, he (Arar) would have admitted to "anything" to avoid more torture.

I'm sory but all your questions make me believe that you either didn't read the full story, dimiss it out of hand or haven't understood it.

This one gets tossed around often. Think Cuba uses tourture? How about China?

What's your point? My point is it is illegal for America to send anybody to a state that prectices torture. What does Cuba and China have to do with that?

[ComputerFix]

Nevermind.