[LANMaster]

Interesting Perspective, Albert.

I know Jews and Palestinians in the USA and they all tell me that there are extremists in their homeland's.

The atrocities ARE on both sides.
We've debated who's atrocities are worse ad nauseum.

This thread does focus on a few Palestinian families and has nothing to do with the Jews or the Christians, or even the Muslims. It has to do with the culture itself. Not the religion.

The killings this thread points to are NOT ABOUT RELIGION! They are about honor.

Here's an even better term for it.

P R I D E!!!
(which ALL religions preach against)

No Palestinian would ever tell you that pride plays a part in this murder. But that is exactly how I see it. But what REALLY steams my clams is that SOCIETY ALLOWS THIS MURDER.

* Okay LAN, resume your calm and respectable demeanor *

[RSM123]

Originally posted by AlbertB:
Since I have been here, a little over a year now, the Israeli/Palestinian situation has never been the topic of a debate thread. Wisely I suspect. Please let's not open it at this time eh?

AlbertB - Did you miss this thread ...

http://forums.techguy.org/showthread...5&pagenumber=1

Though I note that the thread starter has himself gone awol

Where is Mariusz ??

He was quite helpful in the other forums when he was lucid

[AlbertB]

People never seem to pass up an opportunity to get a shot at the jews.

That remark was precisely what was needed to start a long queue of people waiting their turn to take a shot at the Jews. And you made it. That was what I was referring to.


Thanks RSM, yeah I guesss that one got away from me! I wonder if that was the conscious or unconscious brain's fault. (Assuming I have both that is ).

[eggplant43]

This story reminds me of Elian, and how people reacted to the situation. Most people took political stands. I was really impressed by one politician, and turned off by many others. The politician who impressed me was Steve Largent, a Conservative Oklahoma Representative with strong Christian convictions. He simply said Elian should be returned to his family in Cuba, despite others predelection to making politically charged statements. He didn't run again. I really respect him.

What the story talks about, IMHO, is what LM says: PRIDE, the bane of us all. It's so sad to know that this kind of cruelty exists, no matter where it is found.

[Hellspawn]

AlbertB, it was obvious that my post was in response to DNeurococo who first mentioned jews in this thread. I made my reply to him, and he had his redirect. End of issue. Your post was sorely misplaced and illogical for the course of the debate.It stands out like a large rock in a smooth flowing brook. You attempt to open the very can of worms that you claim to fear, not I.

My question still stands unanswered. What do the jews have to do with this topic? If the answer is nothing, then I consider my participation over. If the answer is something, then I ask for extrapolation for this.

[Hellspawn]

AlbertB

Allow me to explain what is going on in this thread, because I believe you have missed it. Lanmaster posted an article relating to Palestinian practices and crimes and law. DNeurococo saw it and for whatever reason decided it was attack on the Palestinian (Islamic) religeon. Since the acts described are indefensible by any civilized standard, the alternative is one of attack. An attack on the primary regional adversary of the Palestinian people. The jews. This was offered. I objected. DNeurococo could explain his position and why jews got mentioned, but without that explanation, I must draw conclusions.

I maintain that jewish issues should not have been mentioned and also maintain that jewish-palestinian issues should also go unmentioned as this is an internal Palestinian issue.

[cnimbus]

Originally posted by LANMaster:
Most occur among Muslims in poor, rural tribal areas or among uneducated urban dwellers, he says, although the practice is not explicitly condoned by the Islamic holy book, the Quran.

I think this pretty much explains it all. Not only does the Koran not condone murder, it forbids it.

For those bashing Arabs in this thread - how many Palestinians have you ever known? Or are you just parroting the network news?

How many Palestinians do you think would say 'Incest is the best, put your sister to the test'? Not very many. Bashing all Muslims for the barbaric acts of a few backwards, degraded individuals is like saying all North Americans and Europeans are white trash. Grossly unfair and inaccurate.

[ComputerFix]

cnimbus,

Honor killings are an acceptable practice in much of the Middle East. In fact, there is a growing movement to put them to an end, there are dr.'s that wil "reattach" hymens, others who help these girls escape, etc., etc. This is not a "few backwards people", thus the response both internal to the region and external as well.

To quote LAN....

But what REALLY steams my clams is that SOCIETY ALLOWS THIS MURDER.

This means that even if you are not going to participate in one, as you are not "backwards", the society as whole is responsible by allowing such crimes to take place legally. No one is painting them with a broad brush, they painted themselves by allowing such acts to remain legal and acceptable.

[Paquadez]

An extract from a recent UN report on the Right to Food and Water.

Occupied Palestinian territories

On 20 August 2002, the Special Rapporteur wrote to the Government of Israel regarding reports of rapidly increasing malnutrition levels in the occupied Palestinian territories as a result of possible violations of the right to food in the territories. A joint submission from Palestinian, Israeli and international non-governmental organizations documented evidence of the deteriorating nutritional status, particularly of Palestinian children. A recent assessment for the United States Agency for International Development by Care International indicates an increase in the number of malnourished children with 22.5 per cent of children under 5 suffering from acute (9.3 per cent) or chronic (13.2 per cent) malnutrition. A recent resolution by the World Health Assembly also records the deterioration in health conditions (WHA55.2). Allegations relate to the escalation in closure, curfew and siege policies by the Israeli occupying authorities since September 2000, and invasions and reoccupation of the Palestinian areas since March/April 2002. These policies have been instituted in response to Palestinian attacks on Israeli soldiers, settlers and civilians. However, it is alleged that these policies have resulted in widespread violation of the Palestinian population’s right to food and water. Restrictions of movement are alleged to directly deny access to food, water and work, causing growing malnutrition and poverty. Instances of deliberate destruction of food and water sources necessary for the survival of the civilian population, including the destruction of agricultural land and crops, roof water tanks, groundwater wells and irrigation networks are also reported, and allegations also suggest that closure and siege policies have obstructed the delivery of food aid and emergency assistance. The Special Rapporteur also received, on 29 November 2002, an updated urgent appeal from the same coalition of Israeli, Palestinian and international NGOs, which records a further deterioration of the situation. The Special Rapporteur reminded the Government of Israel of the obligations to respect the right to food under international human rights and humanitarian law.


Let's think on this and consider the poor kids, awhile.

Paq

[columbo]

LAN, please take a look at my thread "American Civility" whenever you have a chance.

[DNeurococo]

First, thanks to “cnimbus” - - he/she beat me to the punch. Lan sanctimoniously complains that “this thread … has nothing to do with …the Muslims.” Yet, he explicitly mentioned the Muslims in his very first post, as “cnimbus” has noted. Lan also says that this thread is not about religion, but aside from Lan mentioning the Muslim religion specifically in post#1, Paqadez mentioned religion specifically in post#2 (“Makes a mockery of religion”). I was simply responding to what was already on the table.

I did indeed view this thread as an egregious attack upon the Palestinian people. It suggests that they are somehow unique among all people for lacking “civility”. While discussing this point, it would be bizarre indeed to ignore the fact that the Palestinians are currently the victims of a brutal occupation by Israel. If I had brought up the people of Switzerland into this discussion, then I could understand why people would think I am bringing in an unrelated topic and going out of my way to criticize a people. But surely the connection of the Palestinians to the Jews is clear and is hardly a “stretch” or an off-topic matter.

Indeed, it is hard for me to see how you can even discuss the actions of the Palestinian people without putting it in the context of their occupation by Israel. If, during an ongoing conflict between two parties, you criticize one of the parties, you can hardly complain if it should result in similar criticisms directed towards the other party in the conflict.

This thread is not about “pride” in general, but about the Palestinians - - as mentioned explicitly in the thread name. If this were just a hum-drum discussion about the dangers of pride, I probably wouldn’t have entered into it at all. To try to mask an attack against a specific people as a general discussion about the sin of pride is disingenuous to say the least.

#$DN

[Hellspawn]

You have done it, DNeurococo. You have convinced me that the jews need to be part of this discussion. I can sure see, now, how a military occupation makes brothers want to rape their sisters and mothers want to kill their now pregnant daughters. Don't know how I could have missed that connection before. Those damn jews. They are so insidious in their ways, right?

Congradulations on two counts. One is for posting this year's most ridiculous rationalization instead of admitting error. And two, for finally giving me a good enough reason to get the hell out of here. What a joke.

[ComputerFix]

Originally posted by DNeurococo:
First, thanks to “cnimbus” - - he/she beat me to the punch. Lan sanctimoniously complains that “this thread … has nothing to do with …the Muslims.” Yet, he explicitly mentioned the Muslims in his very first post, as “cnimbus” has noted. Lan also says that this thread is not about religion, but aside from Lan mentioning the Muslim religion specifically in post#1, Paqadez mentioned religion specifically in post#2 (“Makes a mockery of religion”). I was simply responding to what was already on the table.

"He mentions.."?

LAN, did you author the article you posted?

No?


I guess "he" didn't explicitly mention the Muslims, but rather posted an article in it's entirety. We should all beat him with sticks for it!

While you are busy focusing on the word Muslim and trying to show Jews as having a "just as evil" (moral relativity?)..... I am reading about a girl who had her wrists slit and a bag placed over her head all because of her brothers' deciding to molest her.

Yeah, I am clearly focusing on the wrong part of the article.

[columbo]

The articles show a propensity for this happening among Palestinians in greater frequency than others. (with little or no legal penalty)

Well let's take a look at one of the other articles you posted, about two Jordanian sisters, murdered by their brothers. I am assuming that since you posted the article as a means of illustrating your position on the matter, you won't object to my citing it

At the end of the article, it states "12 women are reported to have been killed this year for reasons of "family honor."

So let's see, according to the CIA World Fact Book, the entire female population of Jordan (ranging from 0 years of age to 65 +) is around 2.6 million (as of July 2003).

If 12 women out of 2.6 million are "officially" declared as having been murdered for "honor" reasons, that would work out to a Jordanian woman standing a 1 in 217,000 chance of being the victim of an "honor killing"....

The article didn't mention whether or not the other 12 victims were of Palestinian descent, so I'm assuming that, while it doesn't help you prove your point, you'll concede that people of Palestinian descent living in Jordan can be counted as part of the population (sort of like "Italian-Americans" or "Irish-Americans"....We wouldn't label the actions of a handful of them as being representative of "Italian culture" or "Irish culture", would we?)...

[columbo]

We should all beat him with sticks for it!

Can I get first swing?