[xico]

Originally Posted by brite750

Yeah Billions, all over the world. Are we as a country trying to tell the rest of the world what to do? sounds a bit over dramatic to me, I'm sure that some Americans feel that way, maybe some of our current foriegn policies reflect this attitude, but the everyday American smoe doesnt care what the rest of the world does, live and let live. 9/11 just fanned the flames of hatred on both sides, a bunch of Muslims stood up and cheered and said ALRIGHT we kicked the American satan right in the crotch, goody for our side, unfortunately Uncle Sam doesnt take to crotch kicking and doesnt necessarily care where the bombs get dropped, so another heapin-helpin of misery and mayhem all around. The Christian right, as you call them, gets to wrap themselves up in the flag like a incenced burrito and release the hounds as it were, while the rest of use head for a ditch.

Brite, let me ask a question. Have your ideas about the world and what's happening in the world changed recently?

[xico]

Originally Posted by iltos

i'm gonna tip toe out on a a very unpopular and thin limb here and draw a parallel

you've articulated the cherokee story into the realm of the senses well, slickjoe .....within their system of ethics, a peacful people who fed the good coming out of the american expansion, and were rewarded for its acceptance by becoming second class citizens who could no longer recognize their homeland, and whose values were deemed primitive and useless.....

(america as the borg?....)....that's not the limb, just a random thought

the parallel is islam (and YES, terrorism is wrong )....but there are...what? 300,000,000 muslims worldwide?....and very few of them are saddam hussein, or ayatollahs, or osama bin laden...the majority just want a roof, food, work, the comfort of their faith.....and a hard rock tshirt, a computer, converse and a honda....maybe they want to try some chinese food and watch american tv reruns....i really dunno the particulars....and they're not relevant

but, in a very real sense, they are feeding the good....and the west seems intent on creating a 'trail of tears' for them

it saddens me to see the rest of the world trying to work things out together (some good, some bad), while this country still wants to tell everybody what to do.

I have to say the American Indian had a very poor immigration policy. Did he ever! For me, it's mind boggling to think of them watching the wagon trains, one after the other, crossing their land, and they were powerless to stop them. Read Reservation Bluesrecently. Hilarious, but so sad and cruel at time I wanted to puke. And yet . . . I guess I won't say what's on my mind since I'm not walking in their shoes.

[LANMaster]

Egyptian Prof: Muslims Had Nothing to Do with 9/11

Egyptian professor Abd Al-Sabour Shahin is head of the Shari’a faculty at Al-Ahzar University, the most prestigious academy in Sunni Islam, and is a lecturer at Cairo University. To make the point plain, this is not a spokesman for the “tiny minority of religious extremists.” This is a man at the very pinnacle of Islam.

^ Is that true?

On August 8, 2005, Saudi Channel 1 aired the following unhinged interview with Dr. Shahin, translated and subtitled by MEMRI TV.

Shahin: Our enemies weave many lies about us, which we are not necessarily aware of. For example: One day, we awoke to the crime of 9/11, which hit the tallest buildings in New York, the Empire State Building (sic). There is no doubt that not a single Arab or Muslim had anything to do with these events. The incident was fabricated as a pretext to attack Islam and Muslims. The plan was to take over the world’s energy sources, and to achieve this control by force and not by agreement or negotiations, by interests, free trade, or anything like that. This is what they wanted.

So this incident was fabricated - and Allah knows that the Arabs and Muslims are innocent of it - in order to serve as a pretext to attack Islam and the Muslims.

So Muhammed Atta was a Jew?

All of a sudden, after we were used to consider America to be a rational and balanced country... All of a sudden, it violates international conventions, cancels treaties, ignores the U.N., acts on its own accord, attacks nations, kills innocent people, and claims it has the right to do so - and all this is based on lies. These were lies from beginning to end, and we were not used to lying - not in policy, not in our discourse, and not in the media. Imagine what crisis the Arab and Islam nation finds itself in, in the midst of these peculiar events, which we cannot explain or believe. All of a sudden, we were framed for an international crime, on the basis of lies.

I believe a dirty Zionist hand carried out this act. Zionism has taken the opportunity to escalate the war in Palestine, killing hundreds of thousands so far, while we watch from the sidelines in astonishment and ask: What’s going on?

Please, somebody tell me that this guy does not hold a high position in Islam.



This is a repost.

I am still waiting on some response from any Muslim who will adit that this guy is a nut job, and should be excommunicated from Islam.

[brite750]

Originally Posted by xico

Brite, let me ask a question. Have your ideas about the world and what's happening in the world changed recently?

I'm really like 3 or 4 different people Like Sally Fields in Sybil, No, not really, why? Oh, because I'm agreeing with Linksky, yeah that is pretty scary Hey, many of you guys had me labeled as a right wing kook, mostly because of my Iraq War stance, I supported my government, my president, etc. or at the very least gave them the benifit of a doubt over the UN, France, Germany, etc.. However as the truth has unfolded, we see things that nobody was really expecting, no WMD's, very little capabilities, UN money for food scam, so as it turns out all the leaders including Saddam were scum, big surprise there. And of course now we have an apparent quagmire, or at the very least an unwillingness to do the things that we would need to do to get this "unrest" under control and turn this freaking hell hole over to the Iraqi people. I always use the bandaid analogy, its better to just rip it off quick, than to sit there and pick at it forever. Anyway sorry to change this into a Iraq war discussion.
My position on religion was always pretty much in step with those of you with a left leaning, with the difference that I'm not rabidly against the Christian right, you respect me and I'll respect you, you attack me, like Mr sheep-goat there and your liable to pull back a stump. As far as Islam goes, live and let live, you dont blow me up and I could care less what you believe. If there is or was some real or preceived slight to Islam or Muslims by the west I'm sure it can be worked out with words, this hatred and revenge thing hasnt worked for Isreal so I dont think its going to work on any larger scale either. I'd like everone to live in peace, and die of old age.

[brite750]

Originally Posted by xico

I have to say the American Indian had a very poor immigration policy. Did he ever! For me, it's mind boggling to think of them watching the wagon trains, one after the other, crossing their land, and they were powerless to stop them. Read Reservation Bluesrecently. Hilarious, but so sad and cruel at time I wanted to puke. And yet . . . I guess I won't say what's on my mind since I'm not walking in their shoes.

LOL, yeah to be honest about it, it was a conquest of one culture over another. I mean its not like the Native Americans were all one group, they warred between themselves, raped, pillaged etc., but they did have a civilization going here. They just didnt have the resources to throw us back into the sea. When you think about it Indians lived the way that they lived for thousands of years with very little change, that in fact may have led to their demise, like an organism that doesnt adapt to its changing environment, it usually dies out.

[brite750]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Egyptian Prof: Muslims Had Nothing to Do with 9/11

Egyptian professor Abd Al-Sabour Shahin is head of the Shari’a faculty at Al-Ahzar University, the most prestigious academy in Sunni Islam, and is a lecturer at Cairo University. To make the point plain, this is not a spokesman for the “tiny minority of religious extremists.” This is a man at the very pinnacle of Islam.

^ Is that true?

On August 8, 2005, Saudi Channel 1 aired the following unhinged interview with Dr. Shahin, translated and subtitled by MEMRI TV.



Please, somebody tell me that this guy does not hold a high position in Islam.



This is a repost.

I am still waiting on some response from any Muslim who will adit that this guy is a nut job, and should be excommunicated from Islam.

Hey they have their own conspiracy kooks
besides thats a little how I feel about Micheal Moore

Please, somebody tell me that this guy does not hold a high position in the DNC

[xico]

Originally Posted by brite750

I'm really like 3 or 4 different people Like Sally Fields in Sybil, No, not really, why? Oh, because I'm agreeing with Linksky, yeah that is pretty scary Hey, many of you guys had me labeled as a right wing kook, mostly because of my Iraq War stance, I supported my government, my president, etc. or at the very least gave them the benifit of a doubt over the UN, France, Germany, etc.. However as the truth has unfolded, we see things that nobody was really expecting, no WMD's, very little capabilities, UN money for food scam, so as it turns out all the leaders including Saddam were scum, big surprise there. And of course now we have an apparent quagmire, or at the very least an unwillingness to do the things that we would need to do to get this "unrest" under control and turn this freaking hell hole over to the Iraqi people. I always use the bandaid analogy, its better to just rip it off quick, than to sit there and pick at it forever. Anyway sorry to change this into a Iraq war discussion.
My position on religion was always pretty much in step with those of you with a left leaning, with the difference that I'm not rabidly against the Christian right, you respect me and I'll respect you, you attack me, like Mr sheep-goat there and your liable to pull back a stump. As far as Islam goes, live and let live, you dont blow me up and I could care less what you believe. If there is or was some real or preceived slight to Islam or Muslims by the west I'm sure it can be worked out with words, this hatred and revenge thing hasnt worked for Isreal so I dont think its going to work on any larger scale either. I'd like everone to live in peace, and die of old age.

But there's also an attitude change, isn't there? Hey, I didn't always believe what I believe now. I can remember trying to talk my cousin into some sense when he told me he had smoked "pot"! Oh my God! All he did was smile. politely.

BTW I'm not opposed to what the Christian right believes as I am opposed to what they're doing, based on those beliefs.

[brite750]

Originally Posted by xico

But there's also an attitude change, isn't there? Hey, I didn't always believe what I believe now. I can remember trying to talk my cousin into some sense when he told me he had smoked "pot"! Oh my God! All he did was smile. politely.

BTW I'm not opposed to what the Christian right believes as I am opposed to what they're doing, based on those beliefs.

Attitude adjustments take place all the time i guess if you really think about it. Its ok to have an opinion, just keep in mind that next year it may change. I try to keep that in mind when I debate something on this forum, a lot of posts are more opinion than fact, which is fine, I find it interesting to see what various people think that I dont come into personal contact with. You get kind of intellectually stale hanging around the same people all the time, and since I'm not a jet setting man about world, this is the only real opportunity i get. The Christian right can do anything it wants within the context of the Constitution, do they get picked on, yes, are they oft time obnoxious, yes, its a balance any group that closes its mind to anything but their own myopic agenda can be a problem.

[poochee]

Jewish World Review August 11, 2005 /6 Meanachem-Av, 5765

A fatwa, or a fast one?

By Larry Elder


http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | The fatwa denounces Islamic extremism. Or does it?


The Fiqh Council of North America (FCNA) issued the fatwa — a religious decree — announced at a press conference held by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). The fatwa, in part, said, "Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives [emphasis added]. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians' life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram — or forbidden — and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not 'martyrs.' The Qur'an, Islam's revealed text, states: '[W]hoever kills a person [unjustly] . . . it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind' [Qur'an, 5:32]."


The Los Angeles Times, in an Aug. 2, 2005, editorial, nearly fainted with enthusiasm. Under the headline "A Welcome Fatwa," the Times wrote, "A broad group of U.S. and Canadian Muslim scholars and religious leaders last week issued a fatwa that is as unequivocally anti-violence as those of Khomeini or Osama bin Laden were pro-murder." Unequivocally anti-violence?


The Times also noted that "Similar, if less sweeping, edicts have been issued by British and Spanish clerics in the wake of the attacks in those countries." But the newspaper also took the opportunity, of course, to take a whack at the Bush administration for its lackof enthusiasm over the fatwa: "The U.S. is safer for their efforts, but the government has been curiouslyreticent to acknowledge and praise the anti-terror cooperation of Muslim organizations." No, the Bush administration took greater care in analyzing this supposedly powerful fatwa. They read the not-so-fine print.


For starters, the fatwa never defines "innocent lives" and condemns killing someone "unjustly." This represents a hole big enough to drive a Hummer through. Terrorism expert Steven Emerson said, "It [the fatwa] does not condemn by name any Islamic group or leader. In short, it is a fake fatwa designed merely to deceive the American public into believing that these groups are moderate. In fact, officials of both organizations [FCNA and CAIR] have been directly linked to and associated with Islamic terrorist groups and Islamic extremist organizations. One of them is an unindicted co-conspirator in a current terrorist case; another previous member was a financier to Al-Qaeda."


Some U.S. Muslim leaders, scholars and commentators also saw through the ruse. Omid Safi, who teaches religion at Colgate University, said the fatwa did not go far enough, " . . . I would be more inclined to say there are elements of extremism in many parts of our tradition. Rather than simply saying these are not a part of Islam, I would acknowledge that these trends are there and do away with them."


Muqtedar Khan, author of "American Muslims: Bridging Faith and Freedom," said of the fatwa, "They should have been at least specific about events, if not individuals or organizations. They did not condemn al Qaeda or [Osama] bin Laden. It would have had more punch to end all these claims that American Muslims are not doing enough to end terrorism if they had."

What does the Council on American-Islamic Relations say about these critics? Its spokesman, Ibrahim Hooper, said the Council failed to mention persons or groups because "it would have been a laundry list"! Hooper added, "I think you can safely regard anyone listed on the State Department list [of terrorist groups] as included." Such a list might include groups like Hamas. But according to terrorism expert Emerson, "CAIR has repeatedly attacked the prosecutions of Islamic terrorists arrested and/or convicted since 9-11 and has attacked the government's freezing of Islamic terrorist fronts as part of a 'war against Islam' by the United States. CAIR has led protests against the deportation of radical Islamic clerics who have called for Jihad or who have been fundraisers for Hamas."


Since CAIR does not wish to list names, they might consider amending their fatwa, along the following lines:

1. It is a sin for a Muslim to kill a non-Muslim, except in self-defense. And Islam is not, we repeat, not, under attack.

2. The Israeli-Palestinian struggle represents a dispute between two legitimate nationalist movements. This dispute must be resolved peacefully between the two parties.


3. Islam is not incompatible with democracy.

Short and sweet. No names named. But this statement acknowledges the extremism operating under its name in Islam, and it rejects the idea that the West and the "Zionists" threaten Islam.

Ahmed H. al-Rahim, who teaches Arabic and Islamic studies at Harvard University, urges fellow Muslims worldwide to specifically condemn Islamic religious terrorism: " . . . [W]hat is more shameful is that there are no mass Muslim protests to speak of against terrorism that is committed in our name."


Now, how about a real fatwa?

[slickoe]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how jet fuel burned hot enough to melt the steel-titanium alloy load bearing columns at the WTC but only singed the edges of the "recovered" passports of the attackers, which were found suspiciously quickly.

P.S. I was watching live when they called off the S&R at the WTC- at the precise moment when all the gold bars were accounted for.

[linskyjack]

Gravity. Actually I dont know but I am sure that if you put a team of scientists on it they would come up with a rational explanation. Most conspiracy theories take discrete aspects of an event, look for some inconsitency, and then PROCLAIM THEM AS EVIDENCE. There are many things that can be explained, given the time and effort to do so.

[brite750]

Originally Posted by slickoe

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how jet fuel burned hot enough to melt the steel-titanium alloy load bearing columns at the WTC but only singed the edges of the "recovered" passports of the attackers, which were found suspiciously quickly.

P.S. I was watching live when they called off the S&R at the WTC- at the precise moment when all the gold bars were accounted for.

Show me where the steel had titanium, you have any idea what titanium is?, and how much it cost per pound Look up ASTM structural steel standards, most likely the WTC was built with ASTM A-36 structural steel, I'd have to have the engineering specifications to tell you for sure. Building structures melt all the time from fires and yet paper can be protected enough to just get singed the dynanics of a fire are very hard to predict. They did a very instructive special on the WTC explaining the collapse, I havent talked to one engineer that saw anything sinister about it, the building wasnt designed for a plane full of jet fuel crashing into it, simple as that, show me a building that is

[linskyjack]

Thank you Brite---as I said, conspircay theories are generally easy to poke holes in.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by slickoe

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how jet fuel burned hot enough to melt the steel-titanium alloy load bearing columns at the WTC but only singed the edges of the "recovered" passports of the attackers, which were found suspiciously quickly.

P.S. I was watching live when they called off the S&R at the WTC- at the precise moment when all the gold bars were accounted for.

[brite750]

http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php#system

Slicko take a read and remove the aluminum or titanium hat while reading, i think some of your brain cells need fresh air.