[lighthouse]

Just looking at the itinery of events over the years which prompted my response.

Christians having a go at Christians (Northern Ireland and former Yugoslavia), Supposed Christians having a go at Jews (the Holocaust), Muslims fighting Christians vis a vis Christian on Muslim (the crusades, Lebanon, umpteen terrorist events, Chechnia, Kosovo), Pagans on Christian (Roman occupation of the holy land) Pagans on Jews (same), Jews on Christian (early AD years in Holy land), Hindus ransacking Mosques in India (Ayodhya) Same happening with Hindu temples, Pagan on Pagan (Roman conquest of just about everyone at the time). Shinto on Christian (Pearl harbour - Pacific campaign). See - just about every belief system has blood on its hands at some point in history, meanwhile people like myself who never had a go at anyone find themselves being got at by just about everyone and it seems thoroughly ridiculous particularly as this is supposed to be the 21st century after all.

[xico]

You left out the Confucists and the Taoist and the Buddhists

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by xico

You're cool, Lan!

So are you, my friend.

[saikee]

The problem of Palestinians and the Israelis can only be understood by those who live there.

One could live in Palestine and mind one's own business. Then some day suddenly your home land is declared a nation of another race. Now after so many years you are still homeless and without a country. May be you may have a different perspective of the current conflict.

People who used to live around that area were just Arabs and Jews. They didn't have Lebanon, Syria, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait... They could to travel to anywhere within the region and speak the same language. Now it is a different world.

I have verified with many muslims that in their teaching they have a duty to defend their fellow believers under suppression. Some interpret it by becoming terrorists.

To me a peaceful religion is no religion. That makes everybody equal.

It isn't the religions that did the killing. It is their leaders interpreting the religions in certain way and instructed the followers to kill. It is pretty sad to know one couldn't find anything worth to live for and have to kill himself to get to the 80 virgins on the other side.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by xico

And which the State of Israel endorses with state sanctioned assassinations . . . by, of all things, missiles . . . taking out a half dozen bystanders.

Which is perfectly legitimate.

Targeting a known tarrorist (like Yassin a little over a year ago) is perfectly within the bounds of ethics, IMO. I think 2 body guards and an "innocent" who was with him also succumbed to the helicopter-fired missile(s).

I think the Pope put it right when he said he couldn't condemn the Palestinians for what they did when the reaction from Israel is 3 times worse.

Please show me where the Pope endorsed the Palestinians targeting school children.

That's the rub. I think the tactics of the Buddhist monks in Vietnam were right on target. It su horrified JFK as well as everyone else that it brought down the Diem government without killing a single soul (aside from the monks).

I think I agree with you about the monks, but I'm not sure anyone really cares much about life as much anymore.
Today, I think people would tune in just to watch such a horrific event, but for entertainment purposes as opposed to the shock that the 60's generation felt while seeing the reports.

Our society has been so morally diluted that life simply doesn't mean as much as it used to.

I fully blame that diluton on the social left in this country.

[Wino]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

............................I fully blame that diluton on the social left in this country.

...........and I fully blame the socially blind right in this country.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by saikee

The problem of Palestinians and the Israelis can only be understood by those who live there.

I disagree. I don't need to slide my head underneath a semi truck tire to understand the concept of pain.

One could live in Palestine and mind one's own business. Then some day suddenly your home land is declared a nation of another race. Now after so many years you are still homeless and without a country. May be you may have a different perspective of the current conflict.

That would be a good argument if it were true.
Israel was attacked. The 6 day war was no something that the Israelis started. It was started by the Egyptians, I believe, and wasn't a pre-emptive strike against innocent Palestinians, which is what appears to be the picture you are painting.

People who used to live around that area were just Arabs and Jews. They didn't have Lebanon, Syria, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait... They could to travel to anywhere within the region and speak the same language. Now it is a different world.

I have verified with many muslims that in their teaching they have a duty to defend their fellow believers under suppression. Some interpret it by becoming terrorists.

That is a crock of crap.
Targeting a teenage crowd of kids defies "interpretation and is never an acceptable means to accomplish a political goal.

To me a peaceful religion is no religion. That makes everybody equal.

Never have I read a more ignorant statement.

It isn't the religions that did the killing. It is their leaders interpreting the religions in certain way and instructed the followers to kill. It is pretty sad to know one couldn't find anything worth to live for and have to kill himself to get to the 80 virgins on the other side.

First off, I think it is 72 virgins.
Secondly, I do not believe they are following Islamic law.
The extremists have hijacked the religion and decided that later interpretations take precident over earlier interpretations.

If I am incorrect, and Islam allows for the deliberate targeting of innocents, then Islam itself is the problem, and must be dealt with.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by Wino

...........and I fully blame the socially blind right in this country.

Come on, Wino. You're smarter than that.

The ACLU and the left have done far more to erode life values from this society than even the farthest right, even the blind right.

[lighthouse]

Oh yeah the confucists - bringing the Chinese civil war/revolution of the mid 20th century into the equation.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Come on, Wino. You're smarter than that.

The ACLU and the left have done far more to erode life values from this society than even the farthest right, even the blind right.

this is an issue i'm pretty conflicted over....personally, the blind right are just plain stupid, in my view

but the aclu has done things that seem pretty stupid to me.....things i disagree with.....

the difference is that they do them for the right reasons....and i just disagree

erode is the wrong word, imo (unless you come from a preconvieved notion of the "right way to do things", which also presupposes that civil liberties where proscribed specifically in the constitution).....and my understanding is that unless the constitution said you can't do something, the nature of the "something" would be worked out

this is what the aclu defends....and they do it miserably from my pov sometimes.

i admit to being an idealist in this regard.....firmly believing that this is the great experiment, and that its success or failure has everything to do with of the rights individuals and an understanding of tolerance....the two pillars of what we defend as freedom under the rule of law

[saikee]

Lanmaster,

It would helpful if for a minute you try to understand that you could have been born a Palestinian and be a victim yourself.

I am not from Middle East but I have travelled fairly extensively in that region.

Personally I don't think the Israelis will treat the Palestinians the way it is now if the other side has the equal amount of weapons, nuclear bombs and external supports.

[WarC]

Originally Posted by saikee

Personally I don't think the Israelis will treat the Palestinians the way it is now if the other side has the equal amount of weapons, nuclear bombs and external supports.

...Which they don't have as a result of an invasion they started and then proceeded to lose.

I think the Israeli's treat the Palestinians very fairly. Israel has the power to wipe them out in a week or less. Meanwhile, Palestinians still fire rockets at Israelis and suicide bomb civilian places. Then when Israel voluntarily leaves from Gaza, Hamas and the militant Palestinians have the nerve to celebrate with a show of force, as if they forced Israel's hand in the matter.

Meanwhile, Palestinian President Abbas promises his people "A march...With Jerusalem its goal". All the while Hamas and the other militant groups refuse to disarm and pledge to continue "the resistance".

Palestine very much still acts like the destruction if Israel is its goal. When the leader of the Palestinian Authority says as much in different words its pretty evident to me who's "good" and "bad" in this situation at this point in time, disregarding history for the sake of peace and moving forward.

Increasingly when I think of the Middle East and Palestine I think of petty children bickering outside next to the tire swing. *shrug*

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by saikee

Lanmaster,

It would helpful if for a minute you try to understand that you could have been born a Palestinian and be a victim yourself.

I am not from Middle East but I have travelled fairly extensively in that region.

Personally I don't think the Israelis will treat the Palestinians the way it is now if the other side has the equal amount of weapons, nuclear bombs and external supports.

Or I could have been one of the 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis.
Or I could be one of the teenagers murdered by a suicide bomber in Nablus.

I do not excuse Israel for their brutality, but I will never, EVER accept that targeting the murder of innocents is an understandable tactic. Nor tdo I believe that raising your children to be racists is an acceptable tactic.

Child abuse of the very worst kind.

[abudahim]

anyone remember this

[dugq]

Originally Posted by lighthouse

Just looking at the itinery of events over the years which prompted my response.

Christians having a go at Christians (Northern Ireland and former Yugoslavia), Supposed Christians having a go at Jews (the Holocaust), Muslims fighting Christians vis a vis Christian on Muslim (the crusades, Lebanon, umpteen terrorist events, Chechnia, Kosovo), Pagans on Christian (Roman occupation of the holy land) Pagans on Jews (same), Jews on Christian (early AD years in Holy land), Hindus ransacking Mosques in India (Ayodhya) Same happening with Hindu temples, Pagan on Pagan (Roman conquest of just about everyone at the time). Shinto on Christian (Pearl harbour - Pacific campaign). See - just about every belief system has blood on its hands at some point in history, meanwhile people like myself who never had a go at anyone find themselves being got at by just about everyone and it seems thoroughly ridiculous particularly as this is supposed to be the 21st century after all.

But with many of the events you mentioned religion was not really a factor, most were more about nationalism, tribalism, or just power, money and ambition. I cannot see how it is the belief system which has blood on its hands, it is the people who carried out those acts who are responsible. Now if religion was a motivating factor, or even a rationalisation, then maybe you would have a point, but in many of the cases you listed I honestly don't see it.