[LANMaster]

I was just wondering what kind of punishment should happen to these 3 12 year old girls for putting this innocent man through such torture.

So, pick a poll choice and tell what you think the consequences should be.

And should the man be allowed to sue the parents for financial compensation?


Drifter Jailed on Girls' Lies Set Course of Desperation

Demoralized by 251 days in Orange County Jail, where he was wrongfully imprisoned by the lies of three girls, Eric Nordmark resolved to take matters into his own hands if convicted of assault and child molestation.

As his trial began last month, the 36-year-old drifter devised a plan, he said in telephone interviews over the past week: He would smuggle a razor blade stuck to his skin with bar-code labels from the jail commissary. Then, awaiting sentencing in the courthouse holding cell, he'd slice open his carotid artery.

Better that end, he decided, than a long stretch in the company of inmates notoriously brutal toward child molesters, followed by a lifetime of stigma if he survived incarceration. "My mind was made up," he said.

Fortunately for Nordmark, two days into his trial, the 12-year-old girl who was his principal accuser admitted the wanton attack never occurred. The girl said the entire story about the attack in a Garden Grove park on May 15, 2003, was a hoax concocted by her and two friends of similar age as an excuse for getting home late from school.

On Jan. 26, the defendant's waking bad dream abruptly ended. Nordmark, a college dropout, psychologist's son and former U.S. Army mortar man from Wisconsin, was set free. He departed for Seattle, where, he said, he hoped "to get back on my feet … [to] find some menial work and start paying rent."

Blending In

An itinerant laborer who follows the weather, Nordmark had spent much of last winter in San Diego County, where he readily blended in with Ocean Beach's melange of bohemians, bikers and faded hippies. The place was friendly territory for an aimless man with self-admitted "esteem issues," a taste for drink and a strong desire for anonymity.

By May 2003, he was ready to go to the Pacific Northwest. Three days after departing, Nordmark spent a night in jail for public drunkenness in Anaheim, where he had hoped to meet a friend for the journey north. He was released Thursday, May 15.

Late the following afternoon, he was searching for cigarette butts in neighboring Garden Grove when he was approached by a police officer. The next thing he knew, he was handcuffed and made to sit on a curb. "I asked if I was being arrested, or what?" he said. "He said I was being detained — that I matched a description."

A police car cruised by twice, stopping each time about 50 feet away, while its occupants looked him over. The officer, he said, threatened to arrest him on suspicion of public drunkenness if he did not come to the Garden Grove police station to be photographed. He complied, and was released.

Later that day, he happened on the site of the annual Garden Grove Strawberry Festival. He was promised work setting up carnival rides the following Tuesday, May 20. He wanted "a pocketful of cash" for a bus ticket to the Northwest.

On the 20th, Nordmark said, he put in 13 hours of work at the festival. He had just returned to the festival grounds after buying beer and tobacco when police arrived. He said he heard someone call his name, and when he turned in response, he was handcuffed.

"They're high-fiving each other," Nordmark recalled of two officers. "As the handcuffs were being placed, they said, 'You're under arrest for assault with a deadly weapon. The weapon is your hands.' I said, 'These hands are deadly if you're a mosquito. That's about it.' It's not in my nature to be violent."

Not until his arraignment a few days later did he fully realize the nature of the seven charges against him. He was shackled with other defendants, but his charges weren't read aloud, apparently for his protection. A public defender confided to him: "You've got child molestation charges, pretty much."

The 'Attack'

The tale told by the three girls was shocking and vividly detailed:

Walking home from Woodbury Elementary School on May 15, they passed a man lounging in Woodbury Park. As they left the park, the man suddenly appeared behind them. He grabbed one of them, pushed her onto her back and began pulling her hair and tearing at her shirt.

When a second girl went to her friend's aid, the man grabbed her, pulled her hair and tried to strangle her.

The first girl kicked the man in the groin, freeing the second, and the three girls ran to the safety of her gated Cynthia Circle apartment complex, the attacker calling after them, "It's not over!"

Later, police interviewed the visibly shaken girls as a group. The girl who said she was attacked second, according to an officer who was present, kept rubbing her neck and spitting — the aftereffects, she said, of her near-strangling. They described the man as white, about 6 feet tall and wearing a dark, hooded sweatshirt. The description was similar to one given by two boys from the same apartment complex, who said a stranger in the same park had approached them menacingly two days before.

Nordmark's defense attorney, David Swanson of Irvine, contends this was one of the first opportunities police had to uncover the girls' lie: Interviewing them in a group may have allowed them to coordinate their stories more easily and deliver a consistent description of their fictional attacker, he said.

The girls' relatives have declined to discuss the case in recent weeks. But two women who live in the second girl's apartment complex said she took four people to the site of the alleged attack a few days later, and vividly recounted the details, grabbing her neck and pulling her hair to demonstrate.

"Her story was so horrible and sounded so real ... everyone felt so sorry for her," said one of the women, who declined to be identified. "She repeated the story to anyone who would listen."

The girls' story infused Garden Grove police with a sense of urgency. "We thought we had a sexual predator on the loose and we needed to act quickly," said Lt. Mike Handfield. "Who would have expected 11-year-olds to come up with this story?"

On May 16, the day after the reported attack, a Garden Grove officer spotted Nordmark and, based on the girls' description, detained him while two of the girls were driven by separately to look at him. One girl said he was not the attacker, but the girl who said she had been attacked second said she recognized him and began to cry.

It was four days later that a police detective brought six mug shots, including one taken of Nordmark after he had been charged with public drunkenness in Anaheim, to the girls. Two of the three picked out Nordmark's picture. Nordmark was arrested that day.

Swanson has raised many questions about how police handled the identification. For example, by allowing each girl to fetch the next after they had examined the mug shots provided them the opportunity to secretly agree on which one — No. 5 — they should choose.

The defense attorney also criticized police for not shuffling the order of the mug shots before each girl viewed them. At each viewing, Nordmark's picture was the fifth in the series of six. U.S. Department of Justice guidelines for conducting photo lineups encourage police to "consider placing suspects in different positions in each lineup."

City officials have strongly supported police handling of the case. The girls, said Mayor Bruce Broadwater, are "100% to blame."

"Ask the judge what he thought of the witness," he said. The girl who said she was the second attacked by Nordmark, the only one to testify, "was on the stand the whole day. And everyone believed her. She was a very credible witness."

But Broadwater agreed that in presenting the mug shots, officers "made an error. We're well aware of that. It's a minor error, but it's an error. They didn't switch the pictures."

Jail Time

During his eight months in Orange County's Theo Lacy Branch Jail, Nordmark said he passed the time playing chess and doing New York Times crossword puzzles. Other inmates referred to him as "Harry Potter," after the bespectacled English schoolboy of J.K. Rowling's novels.

In an odd coincidence, Nordmark shared a jail cubicle for a time with a man who he figured out during the trial was the older brother of his principal accuser. Nordmark noticed a facial resemblance between the man and the girl testifying against him.

"He was a nice guy," Nordmark recalled. "He said he had a little sister … whose birthday is in October. He wanted to send [her] a birthday greeting, and he asked me how … to write a birthday greeting."

In regular telephone calls to his father, Torberg Nordmark, a retired psychologist in Phoenix, Nordmark poured out his anxiety about the fate he feared awaited him.

Both he and Swanson, his lawyer, were convinced the girls had been attacked, and thought there had only been a mistake in identifying a suspect. "I believed her," he said, referring to the only girl to testify. "But she wasn't making eye contact with me. I told Swanson, 'Is she aware that I'm the one charged with attacking her? I don't think she thinks I'm the attacker. I don't think this kid knows I'm the one being charged with that.' "

The following Monday, when the second day of the trial was to take place, Nordmark found himself being treated somewhat more kindly by the court bailiff. The man led him to the courtroom down a hallway where prisoners usually weren't permitted. As soon as he entered the courtroom, he knew something was amiss. "I'm standing there, and I'm thinking, 'Wait a minute. There's nobody here except my attorney, the prosecutor and the child.' "

Then, Deputy Dist. Atty. Heather Brown entered a motion to dismiss the charges.

"Swanson turned to me and said the whole thing was fabricated. He looked at me and smiled. He said, 'Dude, you're going home tonight.' But I said, 'I'm still in Orange County.' "

Nordmark remains bitter at Garden Grove police and has filed a complaint against the department. "They say they're there to serve and protect the public. But that doesn't apply to me," he said. "To me, they pin, nail and degrade."

He is just as contemptuous of their efforts to prosecute the three girls — who have been arrested and face charges of conspiracy and perjury — and possibly their relatives as well for the lie that stole eight months of his life. The girls don't need punishment, he said, but discipline. The police, he said, are "doing to them what they did to me — narrowing their focus on what they think rather than trying to learn the truth."

Since his release, Nordmark said, his fortunes have improved: He has received about $2,000 in small donations from strangers who read or heard about his case. And two recent developments, he said, have given him new hope for a more stable life.

After arriving in Washington this month, Nordmark had been staying in homeless shelters and seedy motels, but this week obtained an apartment.

And he landed a full-time job sorting clothing from Goodwill collection boxes.

"It's not going to be a career move," he said, "but it's one step on the ladder."

Link

[LANMaster]

I voted Option #5.

I think they should spend as much time incarcerated as Nordmark had to spend in jail.

I also wouldn't be opposed to a stiff fine that should go directly to Nordmark in cash to help him create a new start for himself.

Even that punishment seems a bit light for what this guy had to endure.

[LANMaster]

After re-reading the story, I also think the cops bear some responsibility.

Orange County cops are arrogant jerks. I know from first-hand experience. Even LA cops are more professional than OC cops.

[THoey]

Lan, interesting but sad story. I voted for a month of couselling, but only cause that was the best of all listed choices. I think they need counselling, but not limited to a month, as long as it takes. Sheesh, they are only eleven and had the creativity to make up a story this strong.

I also feel the parents need to get some sort of punishment. If not for any wrong doing during the case, at least for bringing up the children in such a way that they would do something like this.

Third, I do think that the police do owe something, but I would be more lenient with this bunch than the other two groups. My Dad was a Sheriff's Reserve at one time in my life. When we talked about it, I was amazed at what he had "seen" on the job. But, the one thing his boss knew. Don't send my Dad on a child abuse / assault case or a wife beating case. Well, not if you didn't want the accused to be handed over as a bloody pulp.

As an adult, it is sickening to hear of some of the cases that we hear today about sexual or physical abuse of children. Although the police probably didn't do everything perfect, I can see their excitement at putting this dirt ball away. Even if it was all a lie...

[oldie]

Anyone who has seen the film " 13 " will have had their eyes opened to the problems of youth today

Oldie

[Infidel_Kastro]

Originally posted by THoey:
Lan,

As an adult, it is sickening to hear of some of the cases that we hear today about sexual or physical abuse of children. Although the police probably didn't do everything perfect, I can see their excitement at putting this dirt ball away. Even if it was all a lie...

Part of my job is working with Sexual Offenders, and I ask them to tell me what happened, and I also talk to their PO's and they give me the official record. Folks, trust me, what you read in the paper isn't the half of it.
I do feel bad for the person, and yes the police are more than zealous in investigating these types of crimes, and although our system of justice isn't perfect, it's still better than anywhere else.
And although there will be innocent people charged, lets be grateful, at the least, that the police didn't just sweep this under the rug, there was some good that came from this in that you now know the police in OC will vigorously investigate matters like this, lets just hope in the future they are also thorough.

[LANMaster]

I agree, IK. But since these girls have recanted their story, I think their punishment should be severe.

He spent nearly a year in jail for Chrissakes! (8 months)

I think counseling sends the wrong signal to the community.
And moreover, it wouldn't be justice.

Had it been you or me behind bars, away from our family, career, and (God forbid) absent from TSG I know that I woulod be furious to learn that these CRIMINALS only had counseling as punishment for what they did to me.

The man was ready to commit suicide. A false accusation like this resulting in extended jail time must be met with serious consequences.

Now, I wouldn't put them on trial as adults and sent them to Alcatraz. But I think they should spend a serious amount of time behind bars away from their family and friends.

[Infidel_Kastro]

LANmaster,
Don't get me wrong, I think punishment should definately be meted out, the question is how to punish an 11 year old for this. I don't think they really recognized the grave situation that their actions caused. You are right, this man was going to kill himself, I can't say I blame him given the alternatives, I was merely responding about the actions of the police.
As far as jail time, I don't know. Once again, its going to depend on our views of how much an 11 year-old should be held responsible for their actions. I think jail time, in my opinion, is execessive, although one could easily say that the accused stayed behind bars for 8 months( which brings up an interesting point, why couldn't he get bonded out?).
Aristoltle said no apology was needed if no harm was intended, and perhaps they let it go to far, but the original intention was to have an excuse for being late. Maybe a dose of reality, a la, "Scared straight", or working and talking with victims of abuse weould be more productive. ?

[THoey]

How about if they were told they are going to Juvie for the same amount of time. Made to stay 30 days and then mysteriously paroled with the stipulation that any other unbecoming conduct and they would have to stay double.

Again, being only eleven years old, I think they are going to need more mental help than discipline, but I do believe they need both...

[RSM123]

Lan,

This is a tough one - as a bloke I can identify with any male falsely accused of any sexually related crime. Its hard / if not impossible to prove a negative, possibly even months retrospectively. I also realise that for a female to come forward and report such a crime she has to worry about being stigmatised even by people she thought were 'friends'.

It was reported quite recently here in UK that approx 80 % of rapes go unreported - needless to say that figure, as it relates to unreported crimes must be open to question. However what is beyond doubt, is that there are women / teen girls who date a guy who possibly presses ahead when she says no, or a female employee who agrees to drinks with a male boss who does the same. Many women feel such anxiety about having allowed themselves to be such a situation, or worry about other repercussions, that they just forget about it Of course they should not

Any man who does commit such an offence should be looking at a very long sentence (minimum) - possibly including legally ratified castration whether he agrees or not, and no possibility of parole - ever. Though quite frankly I would not be aversed to the sentence being six foot of rope and a convenient lamp post. With minors that would be guaranteed.

With regard to false accusations of a sexual nature - I don't know how it works there in The States ... but here a woman who alleges an attack took place has here anonymity guranteed - she cannot be named or otherwise identified. Furthermore there are strict laws governing what can be reported re an ongoing case. For example the 'chat' shows you had on the O J Simpson trial would never have been permitted here - even if it was certain the jury would not see them. Anyone saying / writing 'He's guilty' would be staring down the barrel of a slander / libel suit from the defendant upon acquittal, and possibly wind up being prosecuted for contempt of court.

In contrast, men who are accused of rape or other sexually related crimes can be named, their photographs printed, etc - unless, very rarely a judge imposes reporting restrictions. For example, only a couple of months ago there was a case of young girl of 17 (age of consent here is 16) who went back to a hotel with a well known soccer player. She admitted that she had consented to sex with this individual but had been forced to have sex with several other team members. They were originally protected from being identified - but Google knows all and they were rapidly known to all UK soccer supporters and taunted during games. The girl's identity was never disclosed. The young lady's case was eventually rejected as hotel security camera footage showed her eating breakfast with these same men the next morning, and kissing each of them in the lobby prior to departing.. What really happened in that room will obviously only ever be known to those who were present. However, these men would have had their careers ruimed, and faced a jail term - possibly on the basis of a woman scorned.

To me any woman who makes a false allegation of such a crime should indeed receive a substantial prison term. However they never will - simply because people involved in such issues would argue that doing so would deter a real victim from coming forward.

As regards the police, I think it is their tendency to believe a person who comes forward to report such a crime, rather than the alleged attacker - after all everyone would expect the man to say it never happened, or the woman consented.

This is of course far from ideal, though it is a progression from, and possibly a consequence of the one time opinion that any woman who goes out provocatively dressed is 'asking for it'. That defence has in the past even been used by defendants, and accepted by judges. I am sure you would agree that just because your niece goes out in a t shirt showing her midriff, and wearing perfume - that she's not giving the 'green light' to any pig thats passing. But if such a case goes to court - it must be very difficult for 12 jurors who were not present at the time, to determine with any degree of certainty, exactly who is lying.

Thats why the actions of the above girls is so contemptible regardless of their relative immaturity. However in the same vein, most rapists will still get away with their crime.


All the best to you.



Rich.

[LANMaster]

interesting views, RSM.

The stigma and hatred felt by this guy in jail for 8 months must have been horrible. Had I been in jail with him, I might have taken a pot-shot at him myself!!!

No, he couldn't bond out. No money, no family who thought he was worthy of the bond. They probably assumed that he was guilty of the crime.

To your point that an 11 or 12 year old doesn't understand the ramifications of such an accusation, I disagree.

Imagine yourself in his position.

Imagine the hatred people felt about him.

I think it is unfair that accusers remain annonymous while the accused is plastered everywhere.

The percentage of unreported crimes is unprovable. (because they are unreported)

[RSM123]

Lan,

I did not state that their age constituted a bye through any potential legal proceedings against them. It is however a factor any judge would take into account.

As regards anonymity for both parties - thats something being reviewed here ... after all - innocent till proven guilty.

In respect of the percentage of rapes not reported - these figures are of course open to dispute. However its a 'best guess' by the police based on surveys of women who have agreed to answer questionaires including questions such as 'Has a man ever forced himself on you?' 'Have you ever been coerced into any sexual activity against your will', etc.

Needless to say the above is unquantifiable - however even if one were to investigate all such reports and dismiss the majority, that would still leave a considerable number of women who have been preyed on by some pig - but who had not reported it through the normal channels for her own reasons.

Of course it does not excuse what happened to this man. Nothing can - he was lied about. What sentence these girls get is matter for the appropriate legal authorities. However I am certain that many more women are victims of a genuine attack - than men are victims of perjury.

There are of course some women who would level such an allegation to 'get even' with a man. But realistically, how many would do that ?

I am often cynical about women who suddenly find a man attractive when they find he has money. To me its quite clear what they really find attractive - but to go as far as brand a man a rapist falsely is not something many would do lightly.

And stop trying to paint me as a liberal - I already wrote to T B'liar asking if all current prison inmates could be conscripted and sent to Baghdad

I am not about to stray from the Far right any time soon.

[Infidel_Kastro]

[quote]Originally posted by RSM123:
[b]Lan,

As regards anonymity for both parties - thats something being reviewed here ... after all - innocent till proven guilty.


I am just goint to get technical here, because Rich said something that always bugs me. In our system of justice, it is not innocent until proven guilty, it is innocent unless proven guilty. Implying that it is a matter of time until you are proven guilty is making the assumption that you are already guilty, we just have to prove it. Unless proven guilty implies that the prosecutor must prove that the defendant is guilty of the charge to begin with.

[RSM123]

I believe that the phrase 'Innocent till proven guilty' may indeed be a misquote on my part and that of others. However it may also be a linguistic contraction of 'Innocent until such time as proven guilty'.

Its fortunate that people here (London) who have trouble confessing can rely on the police to beat it out of them

It used to be stated that police interview rooms had to be mopped regularly

[LANMaster]

Originally posted by RSM123:
Of course it does not excuse what happened to this man. Nothing can - he was lied about. What sentence these girls get is matter for the appropriate legal authorities. However I am certain that many more women are victims of a genuine attack - than men are victims of perjury.

I totally agree, and along with you, I feel that the perpetrators of such acts should be dealt with in the strongest possible way.
Most of society agrees about that.
And that is what makes a false accusation of this nature so proportionately bad.

of course some women who would level such an allegation to 'get even' with a man. But realistically, how many would do that ?

I don't see the little smiley wink here.
As with the other statistics, I have no quantifiable data, but I will guess it is a large percent. Prhaps 1 percent. (which is huge considering the overall numbers.

I am often cynical about women who suddenly find a man attractive when they find he has money. To me its quite clear what they really find attractive - but to go as far as brand a man a rapist falsely is not something many would do lightly.

But a young woman after being scorned is another thing entirely.

And stop trying to paint me as a liberal - I already wrote to T B'liar asking if all current prison inmates could be conscripted and sent to Baghdad

I am not about to stray from the Far right any time soon.

Did I paint you left?
It was certainly not my intent. I know from what part of the political spectrum you come. You right there beside me on the right. I never intended to paint you left, it never entered my mind.
I hope you were joking.