[oldie]

During my four and a half years at Med school, many many moons ago civil litigation against our profession was hardly touched upon. If I remember correctly it was probably an optional read.

Today, in UK Med schools, as many as 100 hours are set aside per term to study civil litigation V the medical profession

This also applies to the nursing profession, be it a degree or diploma course.

Both are Caring Professions which alas are the easiest of prey for some of the less scrupulous law firms specialising in civil litigation - in the UK I hasten to add

However, it is not only the medical profession that is under attack, but most businesses and public services are wary - to put it mildly It is estimated that some 40% of claims for compensation are totally unjustified, and indeed, many false !!!

Declining morals by some?

What is the situation in the States?

Regards - Oldie

[Paquadez]

Bill

I think that the cavalier attitude and failure to take full responsibility for bodies corporate, might well have something to do with it!

One aspect of English (and Welsh!) law, is the awards for tort are amazingly low! (Compared to the USA, that is). Also, we do not have any such thing as punitive damages.

Various of my own and family's experiences with the UK medical profession, in recent years, have led me to consider present practitioners in a different light...............................

The majority are decent and dedicated: sadly, however, the NHS is a collapsed and idiotic organisation.

HCAs are doing work that only a few years ago would have been a nurse's duty. Sisters are scarcer than Hen's teeth: and Consultants rarely seen.

Therefore I take an holistic view of these matters.

Many companies operating in the UK deserve to be sued.

As an example, Norwich Union have recently paid £1,000,000 into the CEO's retirment fund.

Meanwhile, their clients are being screwed!

Yet another example, (just yesterday), is the reality that local authorities are unable to afford road repairs, since most of their budget is being paid out in compensation claims, for motorists cars which have been damaged falling into potholes!

Well, all I know is that my Council Tax has risen again this year by bearly 8%: after a stonking great 16.7% rise last year.

We are told that inflation is less than 3%.

Motorists pay in excess of £46 billion each year in taxes and less than £8 billion is spent on the roads. In fact (and this is truly staggering!) the average time for all roads to be re-surfaced is 53 years!

Now, some few years ago, presumably we can accept that the roads were OK and there were no claims for compensation.

So what happened to the original budget monies to upkeep the roads?

What this is really all about, is gross ineptitude and mismanagement, hospitals too.

Paq

[oldie]

Paq - I very much appreciate your input regarding this subject. You may well be wondering if I have a bee in my bonnett starting this subject again. I have.

When I contracted out of the NHS pension scheme to go into business, my fund was transferred to Equitable Life. Worth 40% less now than 12 years ago. Civil litigation against the CEO and Directors ? No chance.

But what riles me most is the huge growth in civil litigation in the UK during the last 20 years. Not simply against members of the med profession, but the average man in the street. Whiplash injury for instance in cases where a seat headrest was in situ!!!

Lots more

Oldie

[deh]

Well it is definitely true that people in the states are more litiguous than ever.
Because of this Physicians are required to purchase medical malpractice insurance.
The price for this insurance appears to be different state to state. I know this because alot of Dr's are threatening to pull out of New Jersey and work in a state where the cost for this insurance is alot cheaper.

Right now there is a big debate on having a cap on the amount of compensation a person can receive because of malpractice. This in turn would lower costs of malpractice insurance.

[Paquadez]

Bill

This is probably driven by lack of faith in pensions: no hope in the State taking care of you if you are crippled and so on.

I was injured in a car smash, oooh, about seven years ago. Not my fault.

I sued: and won.

However, my back is now permanently damaged and my award was derisory.

The medical "Expert" for the Third Party's insurers, stated, that I would fully recover within four years..............................hm.......

Still in the near future ( ) I am going to have a trip over a lose carpet, making sure that the owner is insured by the same company.

When I am wheeled out of the High Court, after my HUGE win, I shall call over the angry insurance investigator and say:

"To save you some time, here is my itinary. A limo is taking me to the Ritz, where I shall celebrate and have a wonderful nights sleep. Then tomorow morning another limo is taking my wife and I to Heathrow.

We then fly to Charles de Gaulle, first class. Yet another limo is picking me up and we are driving to Lourdes.

When we arrive, the driver will assist my wife to put me into the wheelchair: she will wheel me inside and then tip me into the pool.

You will then witness the fastest miracle ever known!

Paq

[bassetman]

In our state they passed a law capping the settlement amount. Now they aren't too sure it was a good idea.
One physician was found to be grossly negilagent, resulting in the death of a child and the settlement appears small compared to the loss.
I don't think overall it's quite as bad as it is hyped to be though.

[Chris A]

What is the situation in the States?

In some situations it is just as bad if not worse. My brother is a police officer and they all have legal Representatives provided by the union. They can get sued quite often.

I have been called to court a few times for the place I work for. Never for personal actions though.

The people on the floor at work could put many attorneys out of work with there free advice.

chiropractors should not practice medicine.

[deh]

Originally posted by bassetman:
In our state they passed a law capping the settlement amount. Now they aren't too sure it was a good idea.
One physician was found to be grossly negilagent, resulting in the death of a child and the settlement appears small compared to the loss.
I don't think overall it's quite as bad as it is hyped to be though.

That's the million dollar question. What should the cap be? Different situations are going to merit different amounts. Should you get more money if god forbid a child should die and gross negligence was proved or would a higher amount be justified going to something happen to the bread winner of the house leaving a spouse and 4 children?
And how can a cap amount even be determined?

[bassetman]

Deh, you are right. That was what this law's unforeseen consequence was. I wish Rep was here, he knows the law very well I think.
I'll see if I can raise him!

[Paquadez]

Obviously, it is ridiculous when a company or person is sued and suffers obscene awards.

However, how do you punish such as Microsoft, e.g.?

The EU Commissionars have fined them $370 million. MS have circa $40 billion in liquid cash!

I like the idea of punitive damages, since it sharpens the focus of anyone guilty of negligent tort!

Paq

[GoneForNow]

Originally posted by deh:
Should you get more money if god forbid a child should die and gross negligence was proved or would a higher amount be justified going to something happen to the bread winner of the house leaving a spouse and 4 children?

Hey you guys finally hit on my area! The ugly truth. A child from a compensatory standpoint isn't worth much. Breadwinner for four, worth much more. (Hey that rhymed just call me Johnny Cochran )

There are really two areas of concern that you gentlemen are talking about. There isn't any question that should a physician be negligent the injured party should be entitled to compensation. Where there has been a problem in the past is the award for "pain and suffering". That is what got out of hand with the jury awards. You put a cap on the pain and suffering awards and thus avoid the problem of properly compensating the breadwinner because the award, other then pain and suffering, will be based upon how much that person was expected to earn in a life time (assuming he's dead). He is permanently injured and can't work or has a reduce earning capacity then the loss of wages over a work life plus the cost of medical care. Then you reduce the total award to reflect current dollars. I'm giving you the shorten version but I think you can get my meaning. Pain and suffering should or could be limited to half a million which is more then adequate.

The second area is punitive damages. There is a trend in the US to limit punitive damages to intended torts (for lack of a better phrase) such as fraud or assault or battery. As such punitive damages would not be available for your common negligence cases including "gross" negligence (which really doesn't have a definition in the law).

By eliminating punitive damages in your average run of the mill "I cut off the wrong leg" case and limiting pain and suffering awards to half a million, insurance companies have less exposure and have the ability to better predict claims and losses over a given period of time. Which allows them to correctly set rates which ob the whole should be lower.

[izme]

The cost of massive litigations to society cannot be measured just in money, the bill is enormous, an estimated $200 billion a year, more than half of it for legal fees and costs that could be used to hire more police or firefighters or teachers ect. Our society has been changed in a subtler, sicker way. We have been hardened and made more fearful. Friends and neighbors are more wary now. Old swimming holes are closed in fear of getting sued. Little leagues are having a hard time getting a coach because of this. Ect. Ect. Ect.
I have to wonder the real damage of all of this. People are so fearfull of doing anything these days. Almost anyone has to ask: if I say or do something that might be taken wrong, will I wind up in court? . . . Perversely, our insistence on enforcing our “rights” has made us less free -- less free to use our own judgment to make common sense or humane choices about the way we live and treat others. I wonder how much this proposed Cap of $250.000 lawsuits will make? The tobacco lawsuits are the biggest example of this greed ect. I feel.
Everywhere we look is a possible lawsuit. How sick is that?
Something must change. In my local phone book, the lawyer section is the biggest. Go figure.
how much it effects the rest of the world I am unsure of, but it seems to be one of the reasons for the possible downfall of America and all it stands for.

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[Paquadez]

Just some further points.

US Attorneys caused the collapse of Lloyds of London (the insurance market) by litigation, commencing with asbestos claims, once they discovered that they were not statute barred, since Lloyds somewhat foolishly underwote insurance treaties with unlimited liability.

Thereafter, similar attorneys went for all sorts of cases, including contaminated ground caused by checmical plants etc.

Not good.

In the UK, however, as I stated, awards for "loss of amenity and pain and suffering" are derisory.

BTW deh, ALL professionals are normally compelled to carry PI (Professional Indemnity) Insurance.

I have to carry this to renew my practice certificate each year.

And I suffer rising rates, caused by major global firms who were auditors to (e.g.) Worldcom, Enron and failed to do their jobs properly!

Paq

[oldie]

Originally posted by izme:
The cost of massive litigations to society cannot be measured just in money, the bill is enormous, an estimated $200 billion a year, more than half of it for legal fees and costs that could be used to hire more police or firefighters or teachers ect. Our society has been changed in a subtler, sicker way. We have been hardened and made more fearful. Friends and neighbors are more wary now. Old swimming holes are closed in fear of getting sued. Little leagues are having a hard time getting a coach because of this. Ect. Ect. Ect.
I have to wonder the real damage of all of this. People are so fearfull of doing anything these days. Almost anyone has to ask: if I say or do something that might be taken wrong, will I wind up in court? . . . Perversely, our insistence on enforcing our “rights” has made us less free -- less free to use our own judgment to make common sense or humane choices about the way we live and treat others. I wonder how much this proposed Cap of $250.000 lawsuits will make? The tobacco lawsuits are the biggest example of this greed ect. I feel.
Everywhere we look is a possible lawsuit. How sick is that?
Something must change. In my local phone book, the lawyer section is the biggest. Go figure.
how much it effects the rest of the world I am unsure of, but it seems to be one of the reasons for the possible downfall of America and all it stands for.

><">

Can anyone tell Oldie how much monies, percentage wise, Law Firms specialising in Civil Litigation are aquiring?

Thanks

[Davey7549]

I agree with much of what was said so far and strongly feel the "I am a Victim" mentality has much to do with frivolous lawsuits. No one wants to take responsibility for their actions because they may make some money on their suffering. Litigation Lawyers promote this concept in many ways. Not outwardly but when cases such as "I spilled my coffee into my lap while I was driving and it was overly hot and scalded me" manage to win large settlements then others see the gravy train. Many attorneys here take cases with no up front fees and only get paid if they win the suit. Their prize in many case is 30% of the take! A windfall indeed if the settlement is in the hundreds of millions. Tort reform is needed but how it is enacted will affect us all so careful steps must be taken to legislate.

Dave