[rextilleon]

Why is Fallujah still standing? Are we still trying to win the hearts and minds of those who hate us? Come on Mr. Bush----make up your mind. If they love us so much then why the hell are you allowing the rebels of Fallujah (surely a minority) take pot shots at our troops???? Maybe they dont love us so much? Maybe its time to either crap or get off the pot----


BRING OUR BOYS HOME NOW--LET THE IRAQIS DO WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT TO EACH OTHER!

[EdGreene]

Originally Posted by rextilleon

Why is Fallujah still standing? Are we still trying to win the hearts and minds of those who hate us? Come on Mr. Bush----make up your mind. If they love us so much then why the hell are you allowing the rebels of Fallujah (surely a minority) take pot shots at our troops???? Maybe they dont love us so much? Maybe its time to either crap or get off the pot----


BRING OUR BOYS HOME NOW--LET THE IRAQIS DO WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT TO EACH OTHER!

I guess Dubay can handle the large war boards. Now that its down to small unit tactics, to fire and maneuver in an Urban environment, he is looking at something he most certainly is not fit for. But Tommy Franks is.
Here's the catch: the body count would be way too high (politically) just to get one man.

This may be the Dubya's "Waterloo" his "Zugswang": no matter what move he makes, he'll make the wrong one. He'll make enemies all over Iraq and Shia Muslims around the world will revile him for desecrating their Holy City and Shrine.
He will kill hundreds of truly innocent (I do not mean to say they like us, but still innocent) people.
Like I said before, Dubya has too many plates spinning and Fallujah may be the "Domino" plate.

My heart truly is with the Grunts who will have to take Fallujah.
This time, it's me in there with them.

Damn Dubya anyway!

[BLUE66]

I agree with you since they can't fight like they were trained to, then let them come back home, we can't win if we insist on being "PC". Enough already...

[Ciberblade]

Fine, just sandbag the whole middle-east area - let them kill eachother off, we can build a six flags there when its over.

[angelize56]

I think they're doing the best they can and they've killed quite a few of the insurgents...I think I heard on TV over 64 now. They're doing the best they can I would think! What more do you think they can do? Even though they're soldiers I bet quite a few of our side are scared to even be there. Maybe one good BIG bomb to take 'em all out at once! Take care. angel

U.S. warplanes pound targets in Fallujah
More than 60 insurgents killed near Najaf
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 Posted: 9:09 PM EDT (0109 GMT)

FALLUJAH, Iraq (CNN) -- Intense fire from U.S. warplanes lit the sky Tuesday night in Fallujah, a hotbed of Sunni Muslim resistance where U.S. Marines have engaged in a two-week standoff with insurgents.

Two AC-130 gunships began pounding two suspected insurgent positions shortly before 10:30 p.m. (2:30 p.m. ET), lighting the night sky after a day of relative calm there, U.S. Marines and Pentagon officials said.

Columns of smoke rose from the area being bombarded, and the shelling appeared to have set off at least two large secondary explosions.

Marines said the AC-130s, modified transport planes, fired 105 mm cannon at the insurgents while circling the area.

The focus appears to be two insurgent positions near Marine outposts in the city.

Several mosques broadcast verses from the Quran during and after the bombardment.

Fallujah has been the site of fierce resistance to the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq. Pentagon officials said the strikes were in response to a threat to Marines there and were not the beginning of a new push against the insurgents.

"Marines responded by directing precision weaponry against the enemy forces in order to defend themselves," a military statement said.

U.S. Marines launched an offensive against Iraqi insurgents in Fallujah earlier this month after numerous attacks on U.S. forces and others, including the killing and mutilation of four U.S. security contractors March 31.

U.S. commanders halted that offensive April 12 in order to let negotiators try to arrange a return to Iraqi civil control in the city.

Despite a declared cease-fire, however, clashes between the Marines and insurgents occur daily. One such battle Monday left one Marine dead and nine wounded, three seriously.

Tuesday was the deadline for insurgents to turn in their heavy weapons under the cease-fire terms, but a senior coalition official said earlier that the coalition would allow more time for the negotiations to bear fruit.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a U.S. spokesman in Baghdad, said the military is committed to letting the political process work in an effort to prevent the resumption of a full-fledged battle. "Some intangible progress" had been made Tuesday, he said.

"The negotiations, the discussions in the minds of the Marine commanders, continue to proceed, even though we did not see a tremendous number of weapons turned in today," Kimmitt said.

Plans to begin joint Marine-Iraqi police patrols in Fallujah on Tuesday were postponed, the official said.

1st Armored Division replaces Spanish troops

Farther south, about 2,500 U.S. troops are poised outside Najaf, where an uprising led by radical Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr began three weeks ago.

U.S. helicopter gunships and another AC-130 attacked fighters from al-Sadr's militia, the Mehdi Army, on the outskirts of the city late Monday.

Kimmitt said the fighting took place on the east side of the Euphrates River, across from Najaf and the nearby city of Kufa. He said seven fighters from the Shiite militia were killed after opening fire on a U.S. patrol, and a later clash killed 57 militiamen and knocked out an antiaircraft position.

U.S. officials have said they want to capture or kill al-Sadr, who is wanted on murder charges in connection with the slaying of a rival cleric last year. Talks aimed at defusing the possibility of fighting between U.S. troops and the Mehdi Army are proceeding.

Troops from the U.S. Army's 1st Armored Division are picking up the slack left when most of the 1,430-strong Spanish contingent withdrew from the Kufa and Najaf area. Spain's prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, said Tuesday that all Spanish troops will be out of Iraq by May 27.

"Until the 27th of May the only Spanish military personnel remaining in zones of operation will be dedicated to security and to carrying out orders, support and logistics related to the withdrawal," Zapatero said.

American troops have moved into the Spanish base camp between Najaf and Kufa, but have not entered the city, a U.S. commander said.

Attacks and raids have been reported throughout Iraq during the past 24 hours, including the killing of a U.S. soldier in Baghdad's Sadr City neighborhood and four people who attacked a patrol in Diwaniyah, central Iraq, a military spokesman said.

Other developments

Two sisters of a female soldier killed in Iraq have decided not to return to that country, a family spokeswoman said Tuesday.

U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi said Tuesday that a caretaker Iraqi government could be selected by the end of May, a month before the handover of sovereignty by the U.S.-led coalition June 30.

Italian politicians condemned a threat Tuesday that Iraqi militants made the day before to kill three hostages unless Italians protest over the presence of their country's troops in Iraq. Relatives of the hostages urged Italians to help set the men free and take part in rallies Wednesday and Thursday.


Halliburton and its subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root confirmed Tuesday the death of an employee who has been missing since their convoy was ambushed outside of Baghdad on April 9. The victim was identified as Tony Johnson, 47, of Riverside, California. Johnson was a volunteer worker, Halliburton spokeswoman Wendy Hall said. Thomas Hamill of Macon, Mississippi, and two other unidentified KBR employees remain missing since the attack.


Members of the International Committee of the Red Cross visited former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein on Tuesday at an undisclosed location, according to a U.S. Army spokesman. Saddam has been in coalition custody since he was captured December 13. The last visit to Saddam from the Red Cross, which monitors conditions of prisoners of war, was in February.

[rextilleon]

Urban warfare is an oxymoron. Someone site one instance in 20th and 21th Century warfare where 'urban warfare'--ie selective policing has ever worked. Dont compare it to Stalingrad et al because Stalingrad was about total destruction. This is not about Sadr--there are hundreds of Sadrs all over the Middle East---This is about approximately 5000, armed and very dangerous men who need to be dealt with pronto. Now of course I say this only to point out the hypocracy of our policy in Iraq---the madness of the invasion with no hope of forming that country in our image. I dont want to hear any of my conservative friends attacking libs, democrats, etc for tying the hands of our military. Today in Fallujah, our Marines are fodder for the politicians who got us into this mess.

[Rep]

Originally Posted by rextilleon

Urban warfare is an oxymoron. Someone site one instance in 20th and 21th Century warfare where 'urban warfare'--ie selective policing has ever worked. Dont compare it to Stalingrad et al because Stalingrad was about total destruction. This is not about Sadr--there are hundreds of Sadrs all over the Middle East---This is about approximately 5000, armed and very dangerous men who need to be dealt with pronto. Now of course I say this only to point out the hypocracy of our policy in Iraq---the madness of the invasion with no hope of forming that country in our image. I dont want to hear any of my conservative friends attacking libs, democrats, etc for tying the hands of our military. Today in Fallujah, our Marines are fodder for the politicians who got us into this mess.

rex - Never forget the march to war. Do not forget what the president and his administration told us. Remember how we were told of WMD. How they feared us into believing we were about to be attacked and we had to act soon. It would be a cake walk, that march into Iraq. They would welcome us with open arms and thank us.

And those of us that questioned? Wanted to wait a bit? Why we became unpatriotic.

Talk to people. Often it is best to ask them a question or two. Get them thinking. When the American people begin to reflect and think above the rhetoric of this administration, there will be a change.

Mr. Bush led us there. He placed our troops in harms way, and, at the same time refused to work with a broad coalition of our traditional allies. He talked tough, and now this is what we get. There must be change. He is not able to get us out. It will be up to someone else.

[rextilleon]

Rep--I agree with you but I am not so sure that this man will be easy to dethrone. American's are sufferring from post-traumatic shock syndrome (due to 9/11) and are unfortunately willing to put our future in the hands of a man who has absolutely no idea how to fight terrorism. I'm not impressed with Kerry---He needs to stand in front of the country and simply say---Like the president, I was deceived by the faulty intelligence that was presented. The difference between me and the president is that I wont stand by and watch 18 year olds die for what a best can be called dubious reasons. He could then call for a national referendum in Iraq in which the primitives can decide whether we stay or go. Fact is, Al Jareeza could run it. If the primitives say go, we leave. If they say stay, we stay. It's that simple.

[Rep]

Originally Posted by rextilleon

Rep--I agree with you but I am not so sure that this man will be easy to dethrone. American's are sufferring from post-traumatic shock syndrome (due to 9/11) and are unfortunately willing to put our future in the hands of a man who has absolutely no idea how to fight terrorism. I'm not impressed with Kerry---He needs to stand in front of the country and simply say---Like the president, I was deceived by the faulty intelligence that was presented. The difference between me and the president is that I wont stand by and watch 18 year olds die for what a best can be called dubious reasons. He could then call for a national referendum in Iraq in which the primitives can decide whether we stay or go. Fact is, Al Jareeza could run it. If the primitives say go, we leave. If they say stay, we stay. It's that simple.

Yes rex, our country has suffered the post traumatic stress you note...but, Americans are a wonderful people. We can only be led astray for a bit. We are not stupid and we will wake up. When they get leadership, they respond. We have not had leadership for some time now. The current administration, well, that is history...

We need to look to the future. Mr. Bush and his conservatives are not that future. You know it. I know it. Now, get out and teach others to believe it.

[flyeater]

'urban warfare'--ie selective policing

Huh? Not even close to the same thing.
House to house fighting is by far the most brutal & costly combat for all sides. Unfortunately it tends to render some of our military superiority (read high tech) ineffective.
They know this & the goal is to draw us in. Of course since "we know that they know" we need to work at night & with surprise. Believe me the night belongs to the American military.
If we engage in real street combat brace your self for the cost.


Think Grozny

[slickoe]

Why is Fallujah still standing?

Why? Because we are a nation with morals.

[EdGreene]

Originally Posted by slickoe

Why is Fallujah still standing?

Why?

Because we have a President who overreached himself.
Now our Marines and others are being held at bay by a madman hiding in a Mosque, surrounded by so-called "primitives" or derogatorily, "Towel Heads" who have shown a remarkable propensity towards dying for their cause, strapping explosives on their bodies and blowing up Humvees.

Without our technology, Fallujah would be a worse bloody nose on our troops and Dubya's Presidnecy.

Can we say: Tet"?
*I know, we "won" Tet, like we'll win Fallujah. But by the time Tet was over, we had lost the hearts and minds of Americans.
**We've lost Tony Blair...or can't you see the faint outlines of a yellow streak running down his back?

[Ciberblade]

Originally Posted by EdGreene

Because we have a President who overreached himself.
Now our Marines and others are being held at bay by a madman hiding in a Mosque, surrounded by so-called "primitives" or derogatorily, "Towel Heads" who have shown a remarkable propensity towards dying for their cause, strapping explosives on their bodies and blowing up Humvees.

The Marines are being held back because many in the US want to make absolutely sure that no one "innocent" gets hurt -- we could wipe out the insurgents within a matter of days if we were not so concerned that a civilian might die.

[rextilleon]

Its very close to the same thing. If you aren't willing to wage total war then you are certainly involved in a form of policing----As far as our concern over the loss of innocent life--well that is extremely noble but in many instances in our history it never held us back.

[Pacalis]

My father once told me about how to handle fights, he said,"always beat them bad enough that they never want to come back "
I am now 50 , and his advice always seemed to work for me. In Vietnam , I struggled with myself over what he told me. And lost all faith in the Government, which has never returned. To watch the news today and see virtually the same things is repulsive to me. Once again we are fighting a War that is unjustified and fighting it with one hand tied behind our backs, so as not to hurt our reputation in the world . While we serve up our best to be fodder for a lie. This sickens me. The comparisons are frightening. To be deceived by ones Government is the worst that could possibly happen to a nation. My nephew is now stationed in Baghdad and I see the pain in his parents eyes. I support our troops but not who sent them. We must either pull out or totally destroy this country. We have no other options.