[plschwartz]

U.S. General Under Scrutiny in Iraqi Prisoner Case
Thu Apr 29, 2004 06:18 PM ET


By Will Dunham

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military is weighing disciplinary action against the Army general who was in charge of a prison on the western outskirts of Baghdad where American troops were accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners, officials said on Thursday.

The CBS News program "60 Minutes II" on Wednesday aired photographs taken at the prison late last year showing American troops abusing some of the Iraqis held at the Abu Ghraib prison, a notorious center of torture and executions under toppled President Saddam Hussein's government.

The pictures showed U.S. troops smiling, posing, laughing or giving the thumbs-up sign as naked, male Iraqi prisoners were stacked in a pyramid or positioned to simulate sex acts with one another.

One Iraqi man had a slur written on his skin in English. Another was directed by Americans to stand on a box with his head covered, and wires attached to his hands, and was informed that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, in charge of the prison, could be relieved of her command, blocked from promotion or receive a letter of reprimand after a noncriminal administrative investigation relating to events at Abu Ghraib prison, said Col. Jill Morgenthaler, a military spokeswoman in Baghdad.

Karpinski, who left Iraq earlier this year as part of a scheduled rotation of U.S. forces, "might be determined to be blameless," Morgenthaler added.

[slickoe]

I read about this in greater detail elsewhere. Pretty mild stuff, all things considered. Career ending court martials seem severe. I wonder if it is because the General in question is a female?

[Ciberblade]

Originally Posted by slickoe

I read about this in greater detail elsewhere. Pretty mild stuff, all things considered. Career ending court martials seem severe. I wonder if it is because the General in question is a female?

I was wondering when that would be brought up

[AcaCandy]

Pretty mild stuff? Give me a break. And if someone we captured in IRAQ had been videotaped doing similar things to our soldiers taken prisioner over there, that would be acceptable to you?

I say line her up in front of a firing squad

Seriously, the rest of the soldiers should be punished likewise, and losing their jobs is NOT too severe.

Edited for typo.

[slickoe]

With regards to equality in the miltary - when I was in the Marines 11, 12 years ago there was NO racial inequality whatsoever, it was not even an issue, it was a given that we all one color- green- no friction, we were all buddies. But there were DEFINITELY male/female issues. WM's (woman marines) deliberately became pregnant in Saudi to go home, some were caught whoring- we were conditioned by our very own drill instructors in bootcamp- one said "you know what WM stands for? Waste of Money!"

I think women don't belong in a combat environment. We have a military to protect our females, not watch them get maimed and killed in some "equality" struggle.

[slickoe]

I said pretty mild stuff, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. These folks have been killing our GI's. I'm not condoning it but you don't know what they have been through. Do you know what US GI's endured in German POW camps?

[THoey]

I have to agree with Candy on this. The BG may not have known what was happening on her watch, but that won't fly. All those that were part of it and their supervisors should be punished in some way.

I do think ending their careers is extreme.

[pyritechips]

As I heard Gen Kimmit (sp?) on TV say (and I usually don't see eye to eye with him) this is the act of a small number of individual soldiers acting outside the scope of their command. Whether any commanders or Generals knew of, condoned or participated in this act of barbarity is not for me to say. These individuals do not represent, as far as I am concerned, the policies or actions of the American army. I will not condemn the Muslim people for the disgusting acts of a minority of fanatics, nor will I think less of the American forces (who have shown admirable restraint, all things considered) for the actions of a few. If found guilty they should be punished for their barbarous acts but also for disgracing and bringing shame to their honourable comrades.

Some years ago Canadian soldiers were charged with torturing Somalis. The Canadian government took the matter so seriously it disbanded the special airborne regiment.

We claim we want to bring a better, more civilized way of life to others less fortunate than ourselves. A handful of "alleged" criminals have almost skuppered American good intentions and further lowered their esteem in the eyes of the world, and most importantly, the Iraq and Middle-East people. I only hope the damage is not irrepairable.

[plschwartz]

I do not believe that it was just a rogue few in the prison. If you look carefully at some of the pictures you will see that they were shot in open areas in full view of others. Some of the shots are almost hi-jinks.
At least on the streets of NYC it is not uncommon to see teen agers using others' bodies as a toy. It is a common show of dominance by the aggressor.
There is a fantasy shared on these pages that somehow when these kids get into the army they magically are turned into altar boys. An all-volunteer corps is very different then a drafted arm. In the latter there is a mix of social classes. In Private Ryan Tom Hanks is as I remember a school teacher. I doubt that there are too many in Iraq even in the Guard.
When we use the large draft-manned wars WWI WWII Korea and to a lesser degree Vietnam (because of the increased ability to defer) I think we get a rosier view of military behavior then we see in Iraq.
Some of the material now coming out on sexual abuse toward servicewomen are in line with this.

[oldie]

Originally Posted by slickoe

I read about this in greater detail elsewhere. Pretty mild stuff, all things considered. Career ending court martials seem severe. I wonder if it is because the General in question is a female?

Pretty Mild Stuff Certainly not what your leaders think - Sick and Disgusting to quote a Whitehouse source

Does not auger at all well for the USA and it's world standing where respect for human Dignity is concerned. It also ignites a fuse in the minds of various coaltion forces. UN assistance? Forget it.

Mad Oldie

[oldie]

Originally Posted by pyritechips

We claim we want to bring a better, more civilized way of life to others less fortunate than ourselves. A handful of "alleged" criminals have almost skuppered American good intentions and further lowered their esteem in the eyes of the world, and most importantly, the Iraq and Middle-East people. I only hope the damage is not irrepairable.

Well said. I only hope that this is the view of the vast majority of members here, especially those that view these threads without posting

Oldie

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by oldie

Pretty Mild Stuff Certainly not what your leaders think - Sick and Disgusting to quote a Whitehouse source

Does not auger at all well for the USA and it's world standing where respect for human Dignity is concerned. It also ignites a fuse in the minds of various coaltion forces. UN assistance? Forget it.

Mad Oldie

Well that's second thing the White House thing I agree with!
Now if I could remember the first!

[plschwartz]

BTW
proactive presidency??
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House denounced abuse by U.S. troops of Iraqi prisoners as "despicable" and called for disciplinary action against those responsible on Friday after photographs depicting the acts were published and broadcast around the world.

But is this where the de-humanization occurred? These prisoners are delivered in hoods. Why is this done except to demean them.
If the world is filled with goodies and baddies rather then as a member of the class of beings with souls what do you expect. The best and the brightest are not chosen as prison guards. Do they make their own culture or follow a culture already present and continue it?
I do not ever expect this non-introspective president to ever see that he has set the tone which allows this behavior.

[plschwartz]

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nation...-world-big-pix


...Staff Sgt. Chip Fredrick told CBS that poor training for the reserve unit was the root of the abuse with which he is now charged. Frederick, whose family and attorney could not be reached for comment yesterday, said superiors and civilian observers, including the FBI and CIA, turned a blind eye and even encouraged the behavior.

"I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening," he said, noting that soldiers also sicced guard dogs on prisoners.

Iraqis have charged for months that American soldiers were abusing their powers. Last month, Newsday interviewed Iraqi detainees who said American forces beat and tortured them.

One man, Abdul Kahar Mehdi, 30, a teacher, said U.S. soldiers terrified him and killed his 70-year-old father Mehdi Jamal al-Duraj. They pulled plastic bags over their heads and tightened them around their necks in a noose that suffocated the older man, he said.

U.S. military officials apologized for the death of his father and in February issued Mehdi a letter saying they were investigating the incident.

As he guarded Abu Ghraib, Frederick, a correction officer at a Virginia prison, sent an e-mail to his family expressing pride in the unit's ability to crack Iraqis.

"Military intelligence has encouraged and told us 'Great job,'" he said in the correspondence obtained by CBS. "They usually don't allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception. . . . They [Iraqi detainees] usually end up breaking within hours."

Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, who ran Abu Ghraib during the incidents, left Iraq earlier this year as part of a scheduled rotation. She could be relieved of her command, blocked from promotion, or receive a letter of reprimand, Col. Jill Morgenthaler, a military spokeswoman in Baghdad, said yesterday.

In January, four other Army military police reservists were less-than-honorably discharged for allegedly beating prisoners at Camp Bucca, a detention center near the southern city of Basra.

The Army's investigation of the Abu Ghraib incidents began the same month. According to CBS, it includes statements from an Iraqi detainee who says a translator hired to work at the prison raped a male juvenile prisoner.

CBS also reported that there is a photo inside the prison of an Iraqi man who appears to be dead and recently beaten.

"I don't know the facts surrounding what caused the bruising and the bleeding," Kimmitt said Wednesday of that photo.

which sedges into this:
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Descripti...&Cat=2&Num=023


c. outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment. Army Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy chief of military operations in Iraq, told “60 Minutes II” that the torture was “reprehensible” and claimed that those facing charges were “not representative” of American soldiers in Iraq. “Don’t judge your army by the actions of a few,” he said. Americans “need to understand that is not the Army.”

These mendacious comments were refuted by CBS’s chilling interview with Army Reserve Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, one of those facing court martial.

Frederick, a Virginia prison guard, is charged with assaulting detainees, ordering prisoners to strike each other and an “indecent act” for observing one of the sexual abuse incidents. He insisted, however, that his actions were not those of a rogue soldier, but were sanctioned and encouraged by military intelligence and the CIA.

Along with other reservist jail guards, he was directed to physically and mentally “prepare” Iraqi detainees for interrogation. He said that dogs were also used as “intimidation factors” against prisoners. One of Frederick’s email messages said: “Military intelligence has encouraged and told us ‘Great job.’ They usually don’t allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception. We help getting them

[detainees] to talk with the way we handle them.... We’ve had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours.”

As these comments make clear, torture in US-run Iraqi prisons is an integral part of the illegal occupation. A systematic process of brutalization is being directed from the upper ranks.

At the same time, the fact that US soldiers are employing methods similar to those used by the Nazis in World War II is indicative of a deep-seated state of demoralization and degradation that the occupation has bred within the US military. Finding themselves in a hostile environment with the vast majority of Iraqis opposing the occupation, many American soldiers have come to see the country’s entire population as the enemy. Fed lies about the colonial intervention in Iraq being part of a global “war on terrorism,” some have also assumed a license to torture and humiliate their helpless captives.

Contrary to Kimmitt’s claims—slavishly echoed by the corporate media—this is the logic and modus operandi of imperialist conquest and colonial occupation. The pictures of torture, brutality and sexual sadism are representative of the entire criminal operation being conducted in Iraq.

Washington anticipated and prepared in advance for the war crimes now being committed against the Iraqi people. No criminal charges can be brought against a US soldier in Iraq because the Iraqi Governing Council has given the American military a blanket amnesty from prosecution. Secondly, with the backing of Germany and a number of other countries, no US soldier or citizen can be prosecuted for war crimes in the International Criminal Court.

The “60 Minutes II” broadcast has provided only a partial glimpse of the crimes being carried out by US forces in Iraq and elsewhere. The conditions in Iraqi jails, where over 18,000 prisoners are being held, are replicated in a network of US-run concentration camps around the world. These include Guantanamo Bay, Diego Garcia, Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan. According to current estimates, the US is incarcerating over 25,000 detainees in these hellholes, in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

_____________________________________________

Save for certain adjectives I can actually find little to disagree with the Irani position.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by AcaCandy

Pretty mild stuff? Give me a break. And if someone we captured in IRAQ had been videotaped doing similar things to our soldiers taken prisioner over there, that would be acceptable to you?

I say line her up in front of a firing squad

Seriously, the rest of the soldiers should be punished likewise, and losing their jobs is NOT too severe.

Edited for typo.

'bout time we had an agreement again.

Good post.