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Rumsfeld hearing


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plschwartz's Avatar
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07-May-2004, 07:07 PM #1
Rumsfeld hearing
Someone has to start.

It was a very well produced appearence. Gotta say that Rummy can produce even at his age.
They do need a blood sacrifice. Maybe Gitmo General.
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07-May-2004, 09:18 PM #2
I heard some of this on the radio today ... what a joke. The Senators didn't want the truth - they just wanted to nail Rumsfeld / Bush.

Specifically, I heard Sen. Dayton from Minnesota. He was rude and ignorant, interrupting Rumfeld repeatedly whenever Rumsfeld didn't say what he wanted to hear. Dayton just kept hammering away, pretty much ignoring Rumsfeld, like all that mattered was hearing his own voice or trying to trip up Sec. Rumsfeld.

The whole thing was so incredibly partisan it made me sick. Of course, if a Democrat was President right now, it would have been the Republicans behaving like the Democrats did today.

The question I would like to ask is this: In a WAR, what is an acceptable means to interrogate a prisoner? Ask once, and if they refuse to answer then that's the end of it? I don't think so. There has to be some way to make the prisoner want to answer questions - to soften them up. Is what happened in the pictures the way to do that? I don't know. I do know it could have been a whole lot worse.

Tom
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07-May-2004, 09:28 PM #3
That's all the democrats are looking for, an advantage in the upcoming election. Kerry has made their party look so bad they are ready to crucify Christ himself if it would help their [arty win an election. Who are the only ones crying foul in this Iraqi prison "torture" fiasco..
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07-May-2004, 09:49 PM #4
A blog to monitor, vis-a-vis Rummy, Iraq, et. al...


http://www.empirenotes.org/index.html
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07-May-2004, 10:26 PM #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockn
That's all the democrats are looking for, an advantage in the upcoming election. Kerry has made their party look so bad they are ready to crucify Christ himself if it would help their [arty win an election. Who are the only ones crying foul in this Iraqi prison "torture" fiasco..
"Who are the only ones crying foul in this Iraqi prison "torture" fiasco..."

The civilized world comes to mind. Sorry, but this is a very serious matter with long term global consequesnces. There are plenty of main stream republicans concerned about this issue as well.

It is time to curb the conservative tough guy rhetoric that has played a huge role in getting us into this mess.

This do it alone attitude is coming back to bite our nation. Somebody has to stand up to this President, and soon.
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07-May-2004, 11:25 PM #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockn
are the only ones crying foul in this Iraqi prison "torture" fiasco..

.......I'd hope that all of us are 'crying foul' regarding this......
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08-May-2004, 12:06 AM #7
The damage control seems to be to stick it to those kids in the picture.
I have heard several who have been in service say that enlisted GIs just wouldn't do it on their own, that there had to be a sense that they at the least could get away from it and maybe even that they should.

Maybe some of you who have been in sevice could give an opinion asto ywhether you feel this the humiliation is something they would have cooked up themselves or their had to be some real feeling that it would be allowable.
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08-May-2004, 12:08 AM #8
Just came across this from the Guardian:
UK forces taught torture methods

David Leigh
Saturday May 8, 2004
The Guardian

The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.

The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."

He said British and US military intelligence soldiers were trained in these techniques, which were taught at the joint services interrogation centre in Ashford, Kent, now transferred to the former US base at Chicksands.

"There is a reservoir of knowledge about these interrogation techniques which is retained by former special forces soldiers who are being rehired as private contractors in Iraq. Contractors are bringing in their old friends".

Using sexual jibes and degradation, along with stripping naked, is one of the methods taught on both sides of the Atlantic under the slogan "prolong the shock of capture", he said.

Female guards were used to taunt male prisoners sexually and at British training sessions when female candidates were undergoing resistance training they would be subject to lesbian jibes.

"Most people just laugh that off during mock training exercises, but the whole experience is horrible. Two of my colleagues couldn't cope with the training at the time. One walked out saying 'I've had enough', and the other had a breakdown. It's exceedingly disturbing," said the former Special Boat Squadron officer, who asked that his identity be withheld for security reasons.

Many British and US special forces soldiers learn about the degradation techniques because they are subjected to them to help them resist if captured. They include soldiers from the SAS, SBS, most air pilots, paratroopers and members of pathfinder platoons.

A number of commercial firms which have been supplying interrogators to the US army in Iraq boast of hiring former US special forces soldiers, such as Navy Seals.

"The crucial difference from Iraq is that frontline soldiers who are made to experience R2I techniques themselves develop empathy. They realise the suffering they are causing. But people who haven't undergone this don't realise what they are doing to people. It's a shambles in Iraq".

The British former officer said the dissemination of R2I techniques inside Iraq was all the more dangerous because of the general mood among American troops.

"The feeling among US soldiers I've spoken to in the last week is also that 'the gloves are off'. Many of them still think they are dealing with people responsible for 9/11".

When the interrogation techniques are used on British soldiers for training purposes, they are subject to a strict 48-hour time limit, and a supervisor and a psychologist are always present. It is recognised that in inexperienced hands, prisoners can be plunged into psychosis.

The spectrum of R2I techniques also includes keeping prisoners naked most of the time. This is what the Abu Ghraib photographs show, along with inmates being forced to crawl on a leash; forced to masturbate in front of a female soldier; mimic oral sex with other male prisoners; and form piles of naked, hooded men.

The full battery of methods includes hooding, sleep deprivation, time disorientation and depriving prisoners not only of dignity, but of fundamental human needs, such as warmth, water and food.

The US commander in charge of military jails in Iraq, Major General Geoffrey Miller, has confirmed that a battery of 50-odd special "coercive techniques" can be used against enemy detainees. The general, who previously ran the prison camp at Guantánamo Bay, said his main role was to extract as much intelligence as possible.

Interrogation experts at Abu Ghraib prison were there to help make the prison staff "more able to garner intelligence as rapidly as possible".

Sleep deprivation and stripping naked were techniques that could now only be authorised at general officer level, he said.
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08-May-2004, 02:07 PM #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep
"Who are the only ones crying foul in this Iraqi prison "torture" fiasco..."

The civilized world comes to mind. Sorry, but this is a very serious matter with long term global consequesnces. There are plenty of main stream republicans concerned about this issue
Many thanks for restoring my faith in mankind

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08-May-2004, 02:11 PM #10
Do USA politicians and senior White House staff ever resign on a matter of principle. The honorable thing to do

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08-May-2004, 04:00 PM #11
Oldie:
According to some washington-savvy pundits it appears not, though sometimes presidents have thrown someone overboard to feed the sharks
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08-May-2004, 08:15 PM #12
COLOR KEY: Black = DN
Blue = Joe Liberman
Red =Josh Marshall

I don't know if any of you have seen the backgrounds on some of these people (Lyn England, etc.)
At the risk of sounding elitist and contemptuous of my fellow man, these people seem to be to be very pathetic: poor, uneducated, unsophisticated, with not much of a future.

While the people directly involved should answer for their crimes, they hardly seem to me to be "criminal masterminds" to say the least.

England in particular stikes me as being a little girl lost in a big world, getting a big kick out of being in charge of anything for the first time in her life. Posing with pride with her "trophies" oblivious to the fact that she did not capture them and is being directed by someone else to take a pose - - like a little girl proudly sitting on a cardboard throne wearing a tin-foil crown.

On the subject of Rummy's hearing, I really liked this bit from Josh Marshall's blog:

A bunch of readers have asked me what it was Sen. Joe Lieberman said this morning that made me react so negatively. It was his words right out of the gate this morning at the Senate hearings ...

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Secretary, the behavior by Americans at the prison in Iraq is, as we all acknowledge, immoral, intolerable and un-American. It deserves the apology that you have given today and that have been given by others in high positions in our government and our military.

I cannot help but say, however, that those who were responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on September 11th, 2001, never apologized. Those who have killed hundreds of Americans in uniform in Iraq working to liberate Iraq and protect our security have never apologized.

And those who murdered and burned and humiliated four Americans in Fallujah a while ago never received an apology from anybody.

So it's part of -- wrongs occurred here, by the people in those pictures and perhaps by people up the chain of command.

But Americans are different. That's why we're outraged by this. That's why the apologies were due.


Ugly, pandering, a display of the cheapest tendencies of the man.

Our moral superiority to mass murderers and people who desecrate people's bodies in town squares is, while thankfully true, simply not relevant to this issue.

This is the sort of subject-changing our parents try to wean us from when we're in grade school. (Okay, I did that. But look what Tommy did!) And of course there's the side-issue that Lieberman is playing to the notion that there's some sort of 'they did this to us and now we did this to them' issue here. And (how many times does it have to be said?) these folks in Abu Ghraib weren't the 9/11 planners.

Nothing Lieberman said is untrue precisely. It does set us apart from fascists and mass-murderers that Americans are outraged by this and that there will be investigations and accountability. But talk about defining deviance down!

In cases like this, emphasis is everything. And his was all wrong.

For Mr. Responsibility and Morality, what a disappointment.

He can take a lesson not only from John McCain but from Lindsey Graham too.


By the way, aside from what Josh Marshall said about Lieberman - - Lieberman's words don't even make sense. Lieberman said "those who murdered and burned... never received an apology..."

Of course, that dimwit was trying to say that they never gave an apology.

Last edited by DNeurococo : 08-May-2004 08:28 PM.
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