[lighthouse]

As this is a place where you find a vast array of opinions on just about everything here are a couple of situations for the community to mull over....................

1) Not far from a guys apartment are the remains of a small play park. I say remains because until a few years ago it was a pretty cool place with environmentally friendly play furniture and picnic benches - quite idyllic really! It was also a thoroughfare to local facilities (Shops, Mailbox, Post Office, Fast food place etc) Unfortunately it also became a popular meeting place for gangs of teenagers who used it as a venue for consuming loads of illicitly purchased alcohol. This went on for quite some time and people just kind of ignored it to the best of their ability - the occasional complaining session spent talking about what was going on. Most of this play furniture was made of wood and anyone who knows anything about trees will be aware that the grain starts to open up over the years with weathering. These 'drinkers' noticed this and when they weren't smashing bottles and mixing it with the woodchipping on the ground they were pushing shards of broken glass into the gaps in the timber (including the slide) - with fairly obvious consequences for anyone legitimately using the place! People got to hear about this and one evening this guy is out to get some food, walking through the park and past a gang of these people. A few yards on and a glass bottle misses his head by a couple of inches and that is it as far as he's concerned. He goes up to one of them, looking him straight in the eye and quite angrilly tells him exactly what he thinks of him and his pals - pointing out the broken glass and potential disaster to illustrate his point. The lad in question rather nervously says "I'll get me dad" upon which the guy retorts "Fine - you do that and I'll say exactly the same to him and in exactly the same way" He then goes on his way hoping that he might have helped these characters see the error of their ways - which he thinks he may have done as the place was empty when he was returning home. The thing is, he's been pilloried for it ever since - with a lot of back biting and stuff, which seems odd because he thought he was doing the right thing Virtually all the stuff in the place has since been removed as it was rendered too dangerous by the actions of a small group of killjoys

A few years later and the same guy goes out to his local 24/7 (A petrol station) at about 1AM on a weekend morning. He's just out minding his own, off to get some milk for a cup of tea after spending hours on the comp writing a college essay. Another group of underage drinkers are on the forecourt and they start giving him loads of totally unprovoked grief (after hassling the assistant for ages), and the guy just counts to 10 under his breath, buys his milk, and goes home. He could have said somethng like "does your mum know you're out at this time - and does she know you're drinking that beer"? - But he doesn't! He goes back the following day - this time for some chocolate - and the same assistant is working there. They discuss the previous night and the guy says that someone should put them in one of those housing projects in northern Britain and see if they'd get away with it! Not be the 'big brave' half dozen in a small town hassling one guy and someone just doing their job He then heads home after the usual 'what's the world coming to' conversation, makes a cup of tea and enjoys his chocolate. Again, he's been getting totally disproportionate grief for it! Am I missing something here and are we turning into a heads they win tales you lose society - where it doesn't matter what you do, it's always gonna be wrong?

It's over to you!!!

[oldie]

Bristol? - Sheffield? - Leeds? - Newcastle? - typical now I believe of most British cities lighthouse. No doubt typical of most major US cities also

Maybe one of the reasons incidently why more people are leaving Britain than are entering (Mail on Sunday report)

Germany does not appear to have this problem, or at least not anything like the scale that exists in the UK. Maybe the fact that ALL males must spend one year in the armed forces or in community service. They cannot attend university until they have completed their one year service. Then their university place is totally free of course

Oldie

[Chris A]

Ya do what you did over here and you would probably get shot at instead of just getting grief for your actions...

[lighthouse]

The double paradox here though Oldie is that this didn't happen in what you might call an inner city ghetto, or one of the sprawling suburban council estates around our main cities Social scientists write about. This was in a quite small, predominantly middle class town, with a few fairly affluent areas. The place was used in the way it was intended mainly by people from a neighbouring housing scheme who you'd probably put in a quite low income group, while the majority of who effectively ruined it all were from more economically secure parts of town. A classic example of 'Haves' spoiling it for 'Have nots' - who seem to have less as time progresses, and as a lot of the land around it all has been ear-marked for private development the 'Have nots' will probably end up having nothing one day! Meanwhile the Killjoys who were from privately owned housing will probably see their parents property values increase enormously in the next few years. Awful isn't it!!!

Any violence taking place throughout this is attributed to them by the throwing of a bottle, and the pre-meditated act of mutilation and/or murder/manslaughter by people who knew very well the consequences of their action. How long would a small child or even an adult have with a severed Artery for example? I wonder what these people are doing now, and have they improved over the years? Or did they just get worse - finding ways in later life to be just as awful?

[lighthouse]

UPDATE: At the moment the area concerned is owned or is accessed by anyone who wants to use it. It's been earmarked for development, so in the next few years it'll be the property of the banks and building societies who lend mortgages to whoever will occupy the plots it will be divided up into. Sigh - more of the UK disappears!!!

[Paquadez]

LH

This is something I have frequently commented upon, other than in TSG, whilst I have made the odd reference on these boards.

It is all very simple: unfortunately.

As an old geezer, I watched the gradual destruction of British society from the 1960s onwards. Remembering that I grew up in the wonderful 50s.

What happened, was the 60s, was the age of destroying the credibility of the establishment. Fine: much of it needed shooting! But not all.

As a great friend and I were discussing a few years ago (he is ten years younger) and grew up, i.e. teenage years, in the 70s. He agreed with my conclusion. The rule book was thrown away in the 60s, but was not replaced with anything else!

The age of "Free Love" and "Self-Expression" rapidly led on to totally self-indulgent behaviour.

As the mass media's power increased and raised worthless morons to the point of iconhood, promoters searched for even wierder behaviour characteristics to distinguish their new hero, from the others. The herd, meanwhile slavishly followed on, neatly ignoring that they (the herd) couldn't afford the therapies necessary to turn back into a "Normal" person, etc.

Significantly, I have watched kids grow up and have their own kids. I am now on the third generation! As each preceeding generation loses even more knowledge in terms of manners, a sense of right and wrong and what constitutes acceptable behaviour, this merely exacerbates a poor situation.

Meantime, our friends the Pols, sait on their pimply bottoms, collecting Baronetcies and whatever for failing!

When Thatcher came to power, the Home Secretary, Willy Whitelaw, promised, "Short sharp shocks" and goodness knows what else! To hear him speak, he was already arranging for pillories to be erected in every town and village centre!

In fact, he totally failed and law and order rapidly turned into anarchy!

He still finished up a Viscount, however!

The Left-Wing Bleeding Hearts, Ivory Tower Dwelling, Liberals, told us all, that people stole, murdered, raped etc. due to their backgrounds. They became the universal apologists for little toerags, who needed severe and savage punishment, rather than safari holidays and the state benefit system showering them with largesse screwed from Middle England's unfair tax burden!

What we have now is almost total anarchy: the law and the Courts are a joke! (Been in a local Magistrates Court recently and watched and listened to how the young oiks behave? An eye opener!)

The police are more concerned with chasing motorists and chasing bits of paper, in order that the latest Home Secretary can "Prove" that his party is making huge improvements.

In circa, 5-10 years, the UK will be a great place to live, if you're either a misbegotten social oddity and Social Security scrounger, or a supra-wealthy City type, and/or White Collar criminal, living in a gated community and divorced from all the problems that you have helped to create.

All the Brits I meet in France, are the same Middle England types. They have given up, had enough and just love the strict standards of law and order and behaviour, imposed by the Gendarmerie and CRS.

They love being addressed as "Sir" and "Madam" in the supermarket, rather than "Mate", "John", "Squire" , or "Grunt".

Ah me, only two years more, worst case, and I shall with great glee, shake off the dust of this sad and tawdry apology for a country.

I could go on and on and on.

I won't.

Paq

[Raeli]

LH:

You have asked the eternal question, to get involved or not get involved.

Getting involved takes more courage and at least has the possibility of helping to rectify a bad situation, but it also incurs risk to oneself. Passing by keeps one safe, but leaves a bad situation to grow.

In my view, getting involved, taking a stand is better, and even if you take complaints or criticism as a result, you know you've done the right thing, otherwise we are simply giving up.

In NYC in the 80's many people put "No Radio in Car" signs in the car windows in the hopes that the signs would lessen the chance of a break in. I found these signs remarkably depressing. I don't whether or not they worked, but they seemed to be the ultimate surrender. ( . . . and the French weren't even invited!! )

I can't remember the name of the poet or poem, but it was written after WWII and the Holocaust and ended with the following (I believe I'm paraphrasing):

"When they came for me there was no one left to object."

Civilized society starts with each of us doing the right thing. Three cheers for intervening!

Raeli

[Paquadez]

Raeli

The problem is now in the UK, that if an aggrieved person tackled, let's say a mugger, burgler, shoplifter, then the honest citizen would be in the dock accused of assault!

In my part of France, if I shoot a burgler in the act, with my trusty twelve gauge, then the Mayor would in all probability invite me round for a beer!

In the UK, like a certain Mr Tony Martin, who shot two habitual burglars, he finished up with a life sentence, which was later commuted to a shorter sentence.

Mr Martin had been burgled again and again and this was in a remote country area. (He owns an old farm).

The police, however, were far too busy doing other things, when Mr Martin originally complained and complained and took sort of two hours to respond to our equivalent of a 911 call!

Didn't stop the one who lived suing Mr Martin for Grievous Bodily Harm, however............................................

Paq

[Raeli]

Paq

I hadn't realized things had gotten than bad. I remember a similar story from my teen years about a break in that resulted in the burglar falling through a sky light and being crippled, and then suing his victims, but I had always assumed that was an urban legend.

What were the charges against Mr. Martin? Was it in part a gun control issue? Not that the final result matters, from the way you describe it he deserves a slap on the back, and the local police should be sued for dereliction.

Raeli

P.S. - just so you know, my problem is with the French leadership, not the populace, whom I assume to be mostly good and decent folk.

[Paquadez]

Raeli

Mr Martin, who is an old a very eccentric man, had inherited his parent's farm and farm house (in the same family for many years and I believe at least four generations).

It was full of antiques.

It was an object of local burglars over many years.

In in the end, Tony Martin "Snapped" and one night when he was being "Done" again, he took his shotgun and let fly!

Sadly, he killed the younger man, whi at 18 years of age, had a conviction sheet as long as your arm and came from a family of thieves and villains.

Unfortunately, Mr Martin's gun was not licensed.

However, he was arrested and tried for murder and found guilty.

After a huge outburst from the public and media, he was freed after a few years.

The UK problem is that the Police and Courts, have taken the side of the guilty: and ignored the innocent.

The Police and Courts fail to protect honest ordinary citizens: however, simultaneously, they vigorously prosecute those who seek protect themselves!

Multiple rapists are released after just a few years and of course, rape again!

The present tariff for "Life" can now be as short as 7 years!

Just the other day, a young man working for the BBC was savagely beaten and stabbed to death, near his home.

Two weeks ago, a young architect was stabbed to death in London, for his mobile phone! And so it goes on. Savage murder is now an everyday, common happening.

Not too long ago, A MURDER in the UK was front page news. very few were unsolved.

Our prisons are full: the Courts don't work and in many parts of Britain, it is far too dangerous to go out after 9.00 PM.

We are deprived of the right to bear arms, or even a Mace or Pepper spray.

If a shopkeeper picks up a baseball bat and tries to fend off a man robbing his cash till or stock, then it will probably be the shopkeeper in the dock!

Whole parts of the UK are plagued by gangs of youngsters, roaming around, cursing, spitting, setting fire to things, mindlessly smashing up anything they feel like.

Probably circa 20% of cars in the UK are now uninsured! Was a criminal Offence (i.e. Felony) now only a misdeamenour!

Funny about leaders! I feel precisely the same about Geo W Bush and Tony BLIar! and Silvio Berlesconi, and..........................

The great thing about France, however, is that the average person is not really interest of bothered in National politics. They are more concerned with the affairs of their Commune and the Mayor - who is elected.

If the Mayor does a bang up job, then he/she is re-elected and re-elected, term after term.

If the National government does something which threatens the continuum of the core of French life and society, then the whole country comes out on strike, the Autoroutes are blocked by lorries; the airports are closed down, the railways stop, the docks grind to a halt.....................

And the government rapidly does an about face!

I can live with that!

Paq

[lighthouse]

Paq; The problem is that as a society changes those living in it change also (see my posts in "nation of boozers" thread). Every generation though had its toughs and youth problems though. Yours had the Teddy boy, which - even all these years later - are still remembered as people you didn't mess around with. But you're right in that there is an omnipresence about the cultural influence in the the UK now - some good, some not so good. But hopefully there are still people here who do retain a semblance of thinking for yourself - although its a struggle.

[Paquadez]

Yup, I agree LH, every generation has its problems.

The troubles now are (amongst others!) that there are more "toughs" and that no one has any respect for authority, from Kindergarten onwards.

Teddy Boys at least respected the Police, and if not, then they got a good hiding and well deserved, too.

Plus, we had national service.

My elder bro was in the Pay corps. There was a "Tough" guy (he was a ted, actually) who refused to salute officers, obey orders and generally though that he was the bee's knees.

So, of course, he did six months in Colchester Military prison!

And there, his life was sheer hell!

Doubling everywhere, spending hours polishing up a battered old steel bcuket until it had to gleam: whereupon the Corp. would kick it all round the parade ground and make him do it again!

Polish up his rough boots until they were like glass: and then they'd have him marching on the spot in a galvanised bath of cold water. Then he had to do his boots all over again. No priviliges, no treats, just unremmitting harsh discipline until he'd learned who was boss.

Now, the thing about this was, that he then had to go back and do his basic training all over again, before he was posted to a regiment! And then do ALL his national service time. he had no credit for the six months he'd spent in the Glasshouse!

Wonderful system! Those smart arses who thought they could beat it, would still be rotating between the Glasshouse and training camp until they were old and grey!

They sooned learned their lesson.

This guy was eventually posted to my bro's camp. He was a very chastened and respectful man. he would salute waste bins, in case they turned into officers! Well, almost......................

And that's probably the core problem; far too many people in the UK, today, have been brought up in a sort of namby pamby pampered world of state benefits and expect that they deserve a living and can do exactly what they want, when they want, no matter who they incovenience, hurt, upset, injure, whatever. No respect.

Being able to live in a society is a privilege, just like driving, not a right!

And it has to be reciprocal: and it isn't!

paq

[lighthouse]

Raeli: Isn't there a law in France where if you see someone getting attacked you have to do something about it?

Paq: Militaristic solutions don't always work though. Aren't lot of the bike gangs (particularly american ones) full of ex-military, some of whom had problems with the Provosts/Red caps?

[lighthouse]

Here's another for the TGS game of scruples.

A guy is on a government training scheme in the early 80s working in a shop. What this means is that he isn't even staff, implying that anyone else who is is above him in the company heirarchy. He's working one day and finds a £1 note on the floor of the shop. He picks it up and takes it to his colleague (who's staff and therefore his supervisor for the day). His colleague tells him to keep it, which he does because his supervisor tells him to, making no other suggestion or advising him on company policy about these things. The guy keeps the £ but will more than happily give it to a customer who might come into the shop asking if anyone had found it.

Years later the same person finds a gold bracelet (worth about £80) and gives to the police, where it is unclaimed after the statutory three months, so collects it as it is now deemed his and sells it at a goldsmiths for about £50. He has also since found a set of keys, claimed at the station/precinct by the owner who gives him a card and some chocolates as a thankyou. He has also found someones Cheque book, Paying in book, some pre-written cheques (with signatures), and a utility bill - all contained in the wallet provided. He hands this into the bank where the account is held - the relevant banks logo and brand name being on the wallet - not wishing to know who the account belongs to. In this instance no communique of thanks appeared from anywhere - but hey ho, it obviously doesn't occur to some people (mmm)!!!

So - in the game of moral dilemmas - was the guy in the right in that early 80s shop?

[hermes]

Lighthouse

Just think of the biggest idiots at your school. A lot of them are grand-parents now and if they were idiots, just imagine what the compounded idiocy of two more generations has done. There is only one way to deal with someone squaring up to you as these kids did and thats meet force with force. I used to have high ideas about social justice and inclusion for these people but after watching them lay waste to our way of life for three decades I have come to the same conclusion that most sane members of uk society have come to and thats that the UK is finished as we like to imagine it. The tail now wags the dog. I intend to take what I can and get out. Sounds pessimistic in the extreme I know, but show me a glimmer of hope. My only hope is that the clowns who allowed this to happen are left to pick up the pieces when they realise that the only people left are the ones who never contribute anything to society. Try your grandiose schemes with nobody paying tax.

As for the analogy you use, let me put this to you. My colleague is a cable installer. He went to a police siezed goods auction and bought a Fibre-Optic Fusion Splicer worth £16,000 for £1,000. Three months later he gets a phone call from the police. They have discovered how much the item was worth and want it back. He tells them he bought it fair and square. They reply that they want it and they will get it either the easy way or the hard way. He consults a solicitor who informs him that they will probably get it if they push hard enough. He sells the goods on ebay. Police can't be bothered to track the buyer, probably worried he may be overseas and thus governed by someone with common sense. Everyone loses except the end buyer. Who was in the wrong there?

One last quandary for anyone who has experienced UK law. Do you think for 1 minute that if You or I had admitted to throwing a burglar down a ladder the police would not have bent over backwards to prosecute you? Sure they would. However, if you are a multimillionaire rock star with a huge, vocal following it is apparently alright. And to add to this, he admitted thinking of killing the person while doing it. The admission of this thought alone would have earned him a custodial sentence in brave new britain.