[plschwartz]

This is in part inspired by the PBS news hour segment on the psychology of abuse.
I was first off heartened to hear from an ex-West Point teacher (LT Col Grossman?)that since Mi Lai our soldiers have been told specifically to disobey and order which would involve unlawful behavior. Robert Jay Lipton a noted psychiatrist in this area talked of the formation of a climate conducive to this kind of behavior. Zimbardo related parts of his Stanford study where good college students became sadistic and displayed many of the behaviors shown in AbuGhraib; he was the commandant and his rule was no physical violence but they waited until he was asleep. But was it a few bad apples or was the barrel rotten?
So I ask why were they smiling. Do you think there is a chance that they felt they were doing an assigned task correctly? Gen Miller came from Gitmo with the task of getting if you will to speed up the assembly line more intelligence he demanded. This is what we did in Gitmo he seems to have said though perhaps he said you cant do it here.
John McCain (oh if only Bush resigns and the Rep convention nominates him!!)
called it Gitmo-ization.

[plschwartz]

Please humor me for a while (or humor me more then usual ).
I am as much stuck with Lyndie English's smile as some are the Mona Lisa smile

Again I go back to Sen Inhofe:
I -- well, first of all, I regret I wasn't here on Friday. I was unable to be here. But maybe it's better that I wasn't, because as I watched the -- this outrage, this outrage everyone seems to have about the treatment of these prisoners, I was, I have to say -- and I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment. The idea that these prisoners -- you know, they're not there for traffic violations. If they're in cell block 1-A or 1-B, these prisoners, they're murderers, they're terrorists, they're insurgents.

Many of them probably have American blood on their hands. And here we're so concerned about the treatment of those individuals.

[How does he know this were they charged aren't even Iraqis innocent til proven guilty or does Inhofe have a different value system for Iraqis??]
[ Hi value prisioners were held elsewere according to Gen Taguba]


A talking head on CNN suggested that it goes back to Bush calling them Baddies, that they are all a bunch of terrorists .
He may occassionally suggest that the rule of law applies as when he apologized but what is his normal assertions about those who oppose american troops Thugs Rebuplican Guards Evil Evil Evil
[ Had he ever suggested that the baddies were even and actually torturers for Saddam??]

One of the questioners today all but suggested that since this level of abuse only happened at Abu Ghraib and that the Gitmo General Miller had arrived to do training there in August there was a cause and effect relationship.
The MI report will not be finished til maybe June so we will have to wait to see about Miller and what he said.

But
SEN. LEVIN: Thank you. No, it's okay. Let me just keep going then. You have just a disagreement over that.

Secretary Cambone, in an article in last Sunday's Post -- in April 2003, the Defense Department approved about 20 interrogation techniques for use at Guantanamo that permit reversing normal sleep patterns of detainees, exposing them to heat, cold, sensory assault; and the use of these techniques required the approval of senior Pentagon officials and, in some cases, of Secretary Rumsfeld, according to that article. These procedures, according to the Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, are controlled and approved on a case-by-case basis.

And then it says that the Defense and intelligence officials said that similar guidelines have been approved for use on, quote, "high- value detainees in Iraq, those suspected of terrorism or of having knowledge of insurgency operations."

Is that true? Were those techniques adopted for Guantanamo and were they then used or accepted or adapted for Iraq?

MR. CAMBONE: There are command-level guidelines for the use in interrogation. They are in some cases the same and in many cases not.

SEN. LEVIN: Not the same in Iraq?

MR. CAMBONE: Not the same.

SEN. LEVIN: In Iraq. Can you give us a copy of the guidelines?

MR. CAMBONE: I can do that.

SEN. LEVIN: Both. So there were specific guidelines for Guantanamo, and they were different from the guidelines for Iraq.

MR. CAMBONE: I believe that they were, and I will give you the comparisons.

SEN. LEVIN: All right. And you'll give those to the committee, then.

Do you know that -- well, let me go to another issue, and that has to do with whether or not the -- let me start it this way. There was an interview in the Times last week, in which Major General Miller said that 50 techniques that the military officially uses in prisoner interrogations, including hooding, sleep deprivation and forcing prisoners into stress positions, have been adopted. Are you familiar with those 50 techniques?

MR. CAMBONE: There is in -- as I said in my opening statement, there are those techniques in Army doctrine. Yes, sir.

SEN. LEVIN: Those are 50 techniques?

MR. CAMBONE: I don't know that it's 50, sir, but there is --

SEN. LEVIN: But it includes stress positions?

MR. CAMBONE: I believe they do.

SEN. LEVIN: All right. And is that something that you will also supply to the committee?

MR. CAMBONE: We can supply the manual to you. Yes, sir.

SEN. LEVIN: All right. Now it says here the following: that the interrogation officer -- excuse me. This is an annex in the Taguba report, says the following as being a permissible technique for use in the Iraqi theater:

The interrogation officer in charge will submit memoranda for the record requesting harsh approaches for the commanding general's approval prior to employment: sleep management, sensory deprivation, isolation longer than 30 days, and dogs.

Secretary Cambone, were you personally aware that permissible interrogation techniques in the Iraqi theater included sleep management, sensory deprivation, isolation longer than 30 days, and dogs?

MR. CAMBONE: No, sir. That list, both in terms of its detail and its exceptions, were approved at the command level in the theater.

SEN. LEVIN: That was a command-level approval?

MR. CAMBONE: As far as I understand it, yes, sir.

SEN. LEVIN: And finally, Secretary, you said that the -- you have decided right from the beginning that the Geneva Conventions would apply to our activities in Iraq.

MR. CAMBONE: Yes, sir.

SEN. LEVIN: And yet Secretary Rumsfeld repeatedly has made a distinction between whether or not those Geneva Convention rules must be applied, whether people -- prisoners will be treated, quote, "pursuant to those rules or consistent with those rules." And he said -- and this is just a few days ago -- that the Geneva Convention did not apply precisely.

MR. CAMBONE: Sir.

SEN. LEVIN: You this morning said, again, the Geneva Convention applies to our activities in Iraq, but not precisely.

MR. CAMBONE: No, sir. I think what the secretary -- I -- let me tell you what the facts are. The Geneva Convention applies in Iraq.

SEN. LEVIN: Precisely?

MR. CAMBONE: Precisely.

SEN. LEVIN: (Inaudible) --

MR. CAMBONE: They do not apply in the precise way that the secretary was talking about -- Guantanamo and the unlawful combatants --

SEN. LEVIN: Well, he was talking about Iraq -- let me cut you right off there. This -- the whole interview here was about Iraq and the conditions at that prison.

MR. CAMBONE: And I --

SEN. LEVIN: That's what this whole, entire interview was about. It was on NBC. It was May 5th, 2004. It was an interview about Iraq. No longer Guantanamo is the issue here. And the secretary said something he said elsewhere, and I've heard this with my own ears recently -- that -- he said that the Geneva Conventions apply not precisely; that prisoners are treated consistent with but not pursuant to.

Now he did say the other day -- this is a quote saying that the Geneva Convention did not apply precisely. Are you saying that the secretary misspoke on --

MR. CAMBONE: I can't speak for the secretary.

I can only tell you what my understanding is, Senator, and that is --

SEN. LEVIN: You don't know what he meant by that?

MR. CAMBONE: I can tell you what I understand --

SEN. LEVIN: No. Do you know what he meant by that?

MR. CAMBONE: -- and that is that the Geneva Convention applies.

Sir, I can't speak for the secretary on that issue. But I will take --

SEN. LEVIN: And you've not talked to --

MR. CAMBONE: I will take the question for the record and I will ask him. I can't --

SEN. LEVIN: It was the May 5th interview. Thank you.


You might want to see this:
Torture by the book

The pattern of abuse of Iraqi prisoners follows established CIA interrogation techniques http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...210574,00.html.

So maybe they were smiling because they felt they were doing a good job atwhat had been suggested to them....
No can't possibly be true
Weird PLS Must be thinking of Alfred E Newman (why is he smiling?)

[bassetman]

PL, thanks for posting that transcript!

[LANMaster]

I watched the entire replay last night on CSPAN.
Cambone came across like a typical Military Intel dude.
Kennedy came across as if he were drunk .... again.
Gen Taguba perported himself like the genuine decent American soldier which is most common in the US military.
Did you know that the Kerry Administration is using the prisoner abuse as a fund raising issue?
I heard NOTHING that made me think that Rumsfeld or anyone else in the Bush Administration should step down. On the contrary.

[Ciberblade]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Did you know that the Kerry Administration is using the prisoner abuse as a fund raising issue?

Tis a fact...heard it it person!

[LANMaster]

Kerry is SUCH a low-life dirt bag.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

I watched the entire replay last night on CSPAN.
Cambone came across like a typical Military Intel dude.
Kennedy came across as if he were drunk .... again.
Gen Taguba perported himself like the genuine decent American soldier which is most common in the US military.
Did you know that the Kerry Administration is using the prisoner abuse as a fund raising issue?
I heard NOTHING that made me think that Rumsfeld or anyone else in the Bush Administration should step down. On the contrary.

I didn't know Kerry was already elected!? How did he get an Administration put together so fast?

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Kerry is SUCH a low-life dirt bag.

YYSSW!

[LANMaster]

Same to you.

[plschwartz]

Well Bush was a low-life for sure and we can toss for the dirt bag

Kerry would be a high class dirt bag please

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by plschwartz

Well Bush was a low-life for sure and we can toss for the dirt bag

Kerry would be a high class dirt bag please

At the very least!

[LANMaster]

The word "class" is not the first word that comes to mind when I think of John Kerry.

[Infidel_Kastro]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

The word "class" is not the first word that comes to mind when I think of John Kerry.

Gee LAN, when I think of Kerry, I think of "class". I just have a bad habit of leaving the C and the L off.

[plschwartz]

LAN
I think you have been watching too much TV ads

[LANMaster]

Yeah, that must be it, Paul.