There's no such thing as a stupid question, but they're the easiest to answer.
JoinTour
Login
Search
 
Civilized Debate
Tag Cloud
adware audio bios blue screen boot bsod computer connection crash dell desktop error excel firefox freeze freezing google hard drive hardware hijackthis install internet laptop linux malware network no sound outlook problem recovery redirect router screen slow sound speakers spyware startup trojan usb video virus vista vundo webcam windows windows 7 windows vista windows xp wireless
Search
Search for:
Tech Support Guy Forums > Community > Civilized Debate >
Chilabi Here today goon tomorrow

Tip: Click here to scan for System Errors and Optimize PC performance
[ Sponsored Link ]

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
plschwartz's Avatar
Distinguished Member with 11,517 posts.
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I am a third generation New Yo
Experience: Intermediate
24-May-2004, 01:58 PM #31
In the movie it seems the diplomat is an american. But in the second post
I think correct
The place and time are Beijing, 1964. Rene Gallimard (Jeremy Irons), an accountant working for the French Embassy, has just arrived in China. Early in his tenure, he attends a performance of Puccini's Madame Butterfly performed by the outspoken and exotic singer Song Liling (John Lone), who is actually a man masquerading as a woman. Not recognizing this, Gallimard pursues an affair with Liling, never recognizing that he is being duped. However, the deception goes even deeper, for Liling is working for the Communist government and using the relationship with Gallimard to procure important French intelligence.

Does it make it more or less understandable if he were French?
LANMaster's Avatar
Community Moderator with 50,012 posts.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central USA
Experience: Need no stinking badges
24-May-2004, 02:01 PM #32
you're welcome for the link, but the militia of Sadr hides in Mosques and shoots from them.
Even the murdered Cleric was off'ed on the steps of a shrine.

Sadr has no respect for religious sites.
plschwartz's Avatar
Distinguished Member with 11,517 posts.
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I am a third generation New Yo
Experience: Intermediate
24-May-2004, 03:41 PM #33
LAN
I heard an interesting discussion of the Sadr story on TV from an Iraqi I think. Sadr is not just Sadr but the son of a very respected former cleric and since he wears a black turban is a direct decendent of Mohammad. While we may see thinks in terms of individuals as honor belongs to the man I do not believe the Iraqis see things that way. Honor say belongs to what the family the tribe so tryng to arrest him is a dishonor to his father and perhaps even to Mohammad.
We presume that the other religious leaders come from a tradition where Sadr type events have happened before and they have evolved ways of dealing with them keeping offense to a minimum. The way his followers have attacked US troops and been slaughtered reminds me of the Iranians in the war with Iraq with these almost human wave tactics. I feel confident that they believe their are defending their religion and will go to heaven if they die.
plschwartz's Avatar
Distinguished Member with 11,517 posts.
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I am a third generation New Yo
Experience: Intermediate
24-May-2004, 05:20 PM #34
Here is one Iraqi who loves Bush
http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?o...6E1CF4441F7F3#

An Iraqi public opinion poll to be released later this week indicates a growing number of people in the country say they support a radical Shiite Muslim cleric whose militia is fighting coalition forces.

In the survey, conducted by the year-old Iraq Center for Research and Strategic Studies, 32 percent of the respondents said they strongly support the fiercely anti-coalition Shiite cleric Moqtada Al-Sadr. Another 36 percent said they somewhat support the cleric, even though he is being sought by the coalition for his alleged involvement in the murder of a Shiite rival, who was killed last year.

The poll numbers place the radical cleric among the three most admired figures in the country, behind the top religious authority for the majority Shiites, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani and the political head of one of the largest Shiite parties, Ibrahim Al-Jaafari.

Six months ago, just one percent of those surveyed said that they supported Moqtada Al-Sadr, whose forces have been battling U.S. troops for nearly two months in and around the Shiite holy city of Najaf in central Iraq.

The poll was conducted before Grand Ayatollah Sistani called for armed fighters to leave Najaf and for fellow Shiites not to join the Al-Sadr led uprising.

The latest poll was taken late last month among 1,640 people in seven provinces in Iraq.

The poll is considered impartial enough that officials from the Coalition Provisional Authority included their own questions in it. The head of the research center, Sadoun Duleimi, says the U.S.-led administration wanted questions on several topics.

“They asked about Moqtada Al-Sadr. They asked about the security situation and they asked about how the Iraqi people perceive them, whether the Iraqi people perceive them as occupiers or liberators,” he explained.

Mr. Duleimi said that Moqtada Al-Sadr's rise in popularity reflects the growing perception among Iraqis that he is not a criminal, but rather is a nationalist fighting against occupying forces.



“Nowadays, any Iraqi who stands up clearly and obviously against coalition forces and asks them to leave Iraq, the Iraqi people are going to support him,” he added. “They are going to respect him. Unfortunately, the multi-mistakes done in Iraq, in terms of political, economic, security, social and so on, let Moqtada Al-Sadr to be a national hero, even in Sunni areas - not just in Shiite areas.”

The latest poll was conducted before the Abu Ghraib prison scandal became public, but Mr. Duleimi said that even before Iraqis saw the images of prisoners being abused, just seven-percent of those polled regarded coalition troops as liberators. This compares with about 45 percent in an April, 2003 survey, taken shortly after U.S. troops seized Baghdad.

Coalition spokesman Dan Senor said that he has not yet seen the poll, but he says the reported results are similar to other reports on Iraqi public opinion in recent months.

“They want this occupation to end, “ he said. “We think it is understandable. It is not nice to be occupied. It is not a desirable state to be in. It is not nice to be occupiers. There is nothing we like less probably than being in the position of occupier. But the third thing we see time and time again in these polls is that while they want the occupation to end, the majority of Iraqis, if you ask them specifically regarding their personal security whether they want the coalition forces to leave, they say ‘no.’”

Mr. Senor said that is because Iraqis recognize that their own security forces are not yet up to the task of combating what he called the "significant terrorist threat" in Iraq.

The coalition spokesman expressed the hope that the transfer of sovereignty to an interim Iraqi government at the end of June will demonstrate that Iraqis are once again taking control of their country, but other results of this latest poll indicate that more than 40 percent of Iraqis say they would feel safer if coalition troops left the country immediately.

The head of the research center, Mr. Duleimi, said that the poll also shows that Iraqis want an interim government that has the power to make sweeping changes after the sovereignty handover on June 30.

In listing their priorities, nearly 82 percent said that they want a government that could implement economic reforms. More than 75 percent said the interim government should have the power to replace current governors and ministers. Finally, 74 percent said government should have the power to order coalition forces to leave Iraq.
LANMaster's Avatar
Community Moderator with 50,012 posts.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central USA
Experience: Need no stinking badges
24-May-2004, 06:07 PM #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by plschwartz
Here is one Iraqi who loves Bush

Oh good, we've beel looking for him.
flyeater's Avatar
Senior Member with 1,467 posts.
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Florida USA
24-May-2004, 06:13 PM #36
Churches were fair game in Dresden why not now? We know they hide weapons & supplies in mosques. Sacred or not, destroy them. If history is so important just tell them they'll have a chance to see history instead of being it.
For all their talk the Bush administration is a bunch of wimps. It's so easy to see how poll driven they are when you don't wear blinders. They've done nothing decisive home or abroad.
Are we at war or aren't we?
__________________
"She made a ravishing corpse"
plschwartz's Avatar
Distinguished Member with 11,517 posts.
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I am a third generation New Yo
Experience: Intermediate
24-May-2004, 06:15 PM #37
Lan
Since we focused on Sadr his approval rating went from 1% to 32% approval and 36% somewhat approval. Better approval rating change then if he had appeared in a superbowl ad.
Wino's Avatar
Wino has a Photo Album
Computer Specs
Distinguished Member with 14,212 posts.
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Republic of Texas
Experience: Advanced
24-May-2004, 07:15 PM #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by LANMaster
Oh good, we've beel looking for him.
Hmmm....about as few and far between as WMD's!
slickoe's Avatar
Distinguished Member with 2,206 posts.
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in a house with a roof and 4 walls
Experience: not as smart as I think
24-May-2004, 09:52 PM #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by LANMaster
I disagree. To the majority of Iraqis, these guys ARE extremists, terrorists, and mostly from outside of Iraq. My opinion.
How could you POSSIBLY know what the majority of Iraqis think about ANYTHING? Don't tell me. You saw something on TV.
GoneForNow's Avatar
Distinguished Member with 12,503 posts.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
24-May-2004, 10:11 PM #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by slickoe
How could you POSSIBLY know what the majority of Iraqis think about ANYTHING? Don't tell me. You saw something on TV.
How about these guys, does their opinion count?




washingtonpost.com
For Seven Iraqis, A Vital Part of Life Is Restored
Tale of Amputation Under Hussein Stirs Compassion


By Vince Bzdek
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, May 24, 2004; Page A01


HOUSTON -- Nine years ago in Abu Ghraib prison, on the night before doctors were to cut off his right hand, Nazaar Joudi wrote a letter to his wife. It was the final act he was to perform with the hand, which was to be methodically removed on Saddam Hussein's orders as punishment for the crime of doing business in American dollars.

"Do not be sad," Joudi wrote to Um Fuqaan that night. "Hopefully Allah will replace my hand with an even better one. . . . God will reward you for standing next to your husband and being my right hand."

Thanks to a Fairfax-based film producer, a half-dozen health care providers and businesses in Houston, and a legendary "white knight in blue spectacles," Joudi's promise to his wife came true last Monday.

Doctors and prosthetists moved by the plight of Joudi and six other Iraqi merchants whose right hands were amputated at Abu Ghraib finished fitting each of the men with $50,000 "bionic" hands. Black tattoos of crosses that had been carved into the men's foreheads to label them criminals were removed by a Houston plastic surgeon a few weeks earlier. All the services and products were donated.

As resentment of Americans in Iraq seems to swell each day, these seven Iraqis are unabashed in their gratitude, not just for their new hands, but for the U.S. role in ending what they call the "reign of horror" that claimed the lives of as many as 2.5 million of their countrymen.

"Tell the American people what all Iraqis want to tell to them," Salah Zinad said. "Tell them: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you."

The other six Iraqis were equally effusive, their appreciation undimmed by the current prisoner abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib, outside Baghdad, and other occupation worries back home.

"We have freedom in Iraq. Now we say anything we want," Zinad said. "Under Saddam we whispered."

In recent interviews, the seven Iraqis were unflagging in their confidence about Iraq's future and the U.S. role in it.

Zinad on the prisoner abuse: "Some American soldiers are a problem. Not all Americans. These Americans who did this will be punished. Under Saddam, such abuses were rewarded and praised. Iraqis understand the difference."

Qasim Kadhim on Americans who think the invasion of Iraq was a mistake: "I think those people have made a mistake, because under Allah, all people are brothers. We must help each other if we have a problem. . . . How do we do it if nobody helps us?"

Basim Al Fadhly on why many Iraqis are angry: "They have good reasons to be angry. There have been many mistakes because of cultural differences. Iraq is not a country like America yet. We were 35 years under Saddam. But that does not mean Iraqis don't want democracy. People like freedom, but with freedom you need life."


The seven have become celebrities in Houston as they learn how to use their artificial limbs and soak up a bit of Texas hospitality when not at the hospital. They've watched an Astros game in the owner's box, donned cowboy duds for a barbecue at the historic Y.O. Ranch, even spent a night at the dog track.

This week, they make a pilgrimage to Washington to employ their new limbs shaking the hands of more Americans they want to thank, including soldiers at Walter Reed Army Medical Center who have undergone amputations. They also plan to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns.

"Saddam is the past," Kadhim said. "Now we must make business contacts in America."

'Amputation City'


Their odyssey began almost exactly a year ago, with an overheard conversation in a Baghdad cafe.

Don North, a former correspondent for both ABC and NBC who is currently a freelance producer, was in Baghdad last June helping set up the U.S.-sponsored Iraq Media Network when he received a videotape from one of the Iraqi journalists working for him. It showed doctors amputating the hands of nine Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib in 1995.

"I'd seen a lot of videotape, but this was truly gruesome and shocking," North said. In Baghdad, the owner of a small video production shop had been asked to make 10 copies of the tape by secret police in 1995. He clandestinely made an extra to keep as evidence of the atrocities. That was the copy that found its way to North.

Al Fadhly said that, after a year in hellish prisons and five months in Abu Ghraib, he was almost relieved when he heard he and the eight other merchants were going to be freed after having their hands amputated.

"We were the lucky ones," Al Fadhly said. "Others stayed in prison much longer. Thirty thousand in Abu Ghraib went to the hangman's noose."

Their trial lasted 30 minutes. Al Fadhly said all nine men believe they were scapegoated by Hussein because his economy was collapsing after the Persian Gulf War, and U.S. currency was anathema to him. Two weeks after the men lost their hands, they said, the law banning trade in foreign currency was thrown out.

Hussein had the nine hands brought to him, to be sure the sentence was carried out, said Farhad Taha, an attending physician at the amputations who was later interviewed by Al Fadhly, who now works for the media network.

Amnesty International estimates that hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Iraqis had their hands amputated for similar crimes.

"Baghdad is Amputation City," North said. "Within a block you run into two to three people without a leg, or an arm, or an ear."

Hussein's secret police, like Hitler's, kept meticulous records of who was killed or maimed, and why. A committee of former prisoners is sorting through 2 million to 4 million files in hopes of accurately quantifying the scope of the depravity.

One of the nine maimed men escaped to Europe after his release, and another has died. Over the next nine years, the seven who remained in Baghdad kept a low profile, living the life of scarred outcasts. They also became their own support system, forever bonded by their time in prison.

"They were their own best friends," North said.

Houston's 'White Knight'


After viewing the tape, North was determined to make a documentary about the men. "It was already a famous story in Baghdad."

When he met the seven, North decided he would shed his role of detached observer. "I decided I wasn't going to leave it up to chance that some doctor who saw my documentary would offer to help," he said.

An oil engineer from Houston, Roger Brown, overheard North talking about the men in a Baghdad cafe. He suggested North contact Houston's "white knight in blue spectacles," famed TV newsman Marvin Zindler.

Zindler is the kind of institution only Texas could spawn: a woofer-voiced champion of underdogs and the underprivileged who sports white pants, a silver hairpiece and blue-tinted eyeglasses.

Although Zindler made his name with muckraking, populist journalism -- he uncovered the scandal memorialized in "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" -- these days he uses his airtime on the ABC affiliate's "Eyewitness News" more to comfort the afflicted than to afflict the comfortable.

"Why'd we do this?" Zindler replies to a question. "Because the guys had their hands cut off."

Zindler is 82 but looks much younger thanks to 30 reconstructive surgeries. ("I was fired from my first TV job for being too ugly," he explains.) Those surgeries yielded a good friend in Joe Agris, Zindler's plastic surgeon. After talking to North, Zindler called Agris to get the good deeds rolling.

Agris, who has volunteered time in Vietnam and Nicaragua doing reconstructive surgery on children, rounded up the doctors, nurses, hospitals and clinics to give the men new hands. North spent his days off making the logistical arrangements. It took months to line up all the benefactors and cut through the red tape, but by early April the amputees were bound for Houston.

The Methodist Hospital, the Institute for Rehabilitation and Research, and Dynamic Orthotics and Prosthetics in Houston donated the operating rooms, rehab and training; Houston-based Continental Airlines paid for the seven Iraqis' flight; the Marriott and Warwick hotel chains housed them; and the Minneapolis branch of a German prosthetics company, Otto Bock, provided the artificial hands.

The Iraqis were met with a surprise in their first days in Texas: the prospect of another round of surgeries to further shorten their arms. Agris and another surgeon he'd enlisted, Fred Kestler, determined that the Abu Ghraib surgeries had left the men with far too much real pain and "phantom pain" -- painful sensations where the limb used to be. Operations were needed to repair the nerves and create a new, smooth surface for the artificial hands.

Last week, the men had recovered enough for the final fitting of their bionic hands, microprocessor-assisted marvels that receive instructions from the brain via electrodes attached to muscles in the arm. The Iraqis are training themselves to fire the right muscles to control hand functions, a process that will take months. Already, they can throw balls, shake hands, raise a glass.

Agris and North will go back to Baghdad with the seven in early June to make sure they have the proper medical support. Agris has arranged to visit other amputees, and he will help Baghdad hospitals upgrade their knowledge about amputations and prosthetics.

"The thing that'll win hearts and minds is the humanitarian effort, not guns," Agris said. "You take care of someone's child, not only do you help the child but you win over the family. And the family talks to the neighbors and you win over the neighbors. It just escalates."

He thinks Al Fadhly, Joudi, Kadhim, Salah and the other three men -- Laith Aggar, Hassan Al Gereawy and Al'aa Hassan -- will change some minds, too.

"I think we're going to see a ripple effect, especially with a guy like Al Fadhly who's got a job working for the coalition's new TV station. They're bringing back a different attitude, a different look."

Ready for Homecoming


No one turned down North, Zindler or Agris when they asked for help. L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. administrator of Iraq, wrote an executive memo authorizing the trip. The Homeland Security Department issued seven "medical emergency" visa waivers, and the Air Force transported the group to Germany to catch the Continental flight to Houston.

"This is really who we are as a country," Agris said.

After nearly two months in Houston, the Iraqis admit they are getting homesick. Kadhim has developed what he says is too much of a fondness for Budweiser, Aggar is eager to get back to his jewelry shop, and the seven men have run up a $6,000 phone and laundry bill at the hotels.

North is shopping his documentary about the men to major television networks. He worries, however, that the publicity the Iraqis have received and their new, expensive hands might make them targets back home. "Anybody in Iraq who is a decent, productive member of society has become a target," he said.

But the Iraqis themselves aren't that worried.

"Saddam's friends don't have much power any more," Aggar said. "Iraq is many millions of people. They are only hundreds. They are the ones who live in fear now."

"Allah will watch over us," Kadhim added. "Once Saddam has his trial, it will be over. Hopefully, it will be quickly."

When Al Fadhly gets home, the first thing he plans to do with his new hand is wave vigorously to his friends and neighbors. Kadhim plans to embrace his seven boys and daughter all at once. Aggar said he will, for the first time, properly shake the hand of the friend who watched over his house and family while he was in prison.

Last week at Dynamic Orthotics, Joudi didn't answer when asked what he would do first. He was already busy using his prosthetic to try something he hadn't done since the night before he lost his hand. He was writing a letter to his wife.
__________________
The Democrats laughed. "I was talking about the minimum wage," Pelosi said. "The American people sent a message this past election, and that message was that they wanted their government to pretend there is no terrorist problem and instead focus on inane crap and entitlements... and who better to do that than we Democrats?"
slickoe's Avatar
Distinguished Member with 2,206 posts.
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in a house with a roof and 4 walls
Experience: not as smart as I think
24-May-2004, 10:26 PM #41
I could have copied the story about the beautiful 17 year old girl with third degree burns over 90% of her body when a US missile hit the LPG tank in her home but that would have about as much relevance to LAN's mysterious pipeline to the majority of Iraqis as your post.
__________________
In four years we marched from Pearl Harbor to the heart of what was left of Tokyo and Berlin. In three years we can't yet take a cab from Baghdad to its airport without an armed guard.

William F. Buckey.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, and politicians are from Uranus.
slickoe's Avatar
Distinguished Member with 2,206 posts.
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in a house with a roof and 4 walls
Experience: not as smart as I think
24-May-2004, 10:32 PM #42
plschwartz said-An Iraqi public opinion poll to be released later this week indicates a growing number of people in the country say they support a radical Shiite Muslim cleric whose militia is fighting coalition forces.


The country is in chaos, battles everywhere, bombs going off, and we are supposed to believe that POLLSTERS are going around asking ordinary Iraqis questions and we should listen to what they have to say about anything? Are they getting representative samples? Where are they going? All parts of Iraq, all ethnic regions? Gimme a break! Everyone has an agenda and noone who says "the majority of Iraqis want........" can be trusted. Demonstrations in the streets are ther best indication of what the majority wants in chaotic times. This is a historical truth. Which is why demonstrations are feared by those in power.
__________________
In four years we marched from Pearl Harbor to the heart of what was left of Tokyo and Berlin. In three years we can't yet take a cab from Baghdad to its airport without an armed guard.

William F. Buckey.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, and politicians are from Uranus.
bassetman's Avatar
Computer Specs
Moderator - Gone, but never forgotten with 48,307 posts.
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Great White North (WI)
Experience: Getting somewhere I hope
25-May-2004, 01:50 AM #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by LANMaster
I disagree. To the majority of Iraqis, these guys ARE extremists, terrorists, and mostly from outside of Iraq. My opinion.
No one speaks for me or my town! Let alone one writer from a foreign country!
Yeah, I spoke on my opinion of Irani's in another thread, but at least I based that on knowing some of them!
plschwartz's Avatar
Distinguished Member with 11,517 posts.
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I am a third generation New Yo
Experience: Intermediate
25-May-2004, 02:04 AM #44
The poll is considered impartial enough that officials from the Coalition Provisional Authority included their own questions in it. The head of the research center, Sadoun Duleimi, says the U.S.-led administration wanted questions on several topics.
Wino's Avatar
Wino has a Photo Album
Computer Specs
Distinguished Member with 14,212 posts.
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Republic of Texas
Experience: Advanced
25-May-2004, 08:18 AM #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by plschwartz
The poll is considered impartial enough that officials from the Coalition Provisional Authority included their own questions in it. The head of the research center, Sadoun Duleimi, says the U.S.-led administration wanted questions on several topics.
Does anyone have the actual poll questions asked? If any thing like the one's here, they will be posed to get the answers desired by the pollsters.

"Are you glad Saddam is no longer in power?" = I like George Bush.
Closed Thread Bookmark and Share

THIS THREAD HAS EXPIRED.
Are you having the same problem? We have volunteers ready to answer your question, but first you'll have to join for free. Need help getting started? Check out our Welcome Guide.

Smart Search

Find your solution!



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
WELCOME TO TECH SUPPORT GUY! Are you looking for the solution to your computer problem? Join our site today to ask your question -- for free! Our site is run completely by volunteers who want to help you solve your computer problems. See our Welcome Guide to get started.

Thread Tools


You Are Using:
Server ID
Advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:13 PM.
Copyright © 1996 - 2009 TechGuy, Inc. All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin, Copyright © 2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Cermak Technologies, Inc.