[angelize56]

Seems everyone is on the same wave length!

[plschwartz]

Guys maybe she is Saudi or married to one. Lets cut here some slack (I say )

I do wonder how newbies get right to civilized (sic) Do we have a rep or do they get us from google searches (gulp, I'm sorry Mr. Ashcroft its only when I'm drunk., I do love your singing..)

[angelize56]

I'll give her the benefit of the doubt Paul!

autumn: I'm honestly awaiting your reply to my first post to you.

Originally Posted by plschwartz

I do wonder how newbies get right to civilized (sic) Do we have a rep...

Now you are catching on......

[autumn2003]

Thank you all for cutting me some slack. I am not married to a Saudi, but have friends there. I am married to an Iranian and in the middle of a visa nightmare. If you all will be nice I will definitely answer you all later Friday. It is 1:10 AM here and I have to be at work in 3 hours for an 18 hour shift. I will answer, but just for a quick reply - I do believe that just like the Jews and the Christians, the Muslims also have blood on their hands. I was raised a Mormon, born and raised in Missouri, and converted to Islam 2 years ago. All of this I will explain in further detail because I owe Angel a reply. I sent one but then it never got to her.

[plschwartz]

autumn:
Waitin to hear from you
P.

[bassetman]

Autumn, I can agree with much of what you said. I had friends from Iran so I know a bit about the area, religion and culture.
I however find it hard to believe that you would defend the Taliban in Afghanistan!???

[plschwartz]

autumn:



In Utah, Two Faiths and One Prayer
By NICK MADIGAN and MELISSA SANFORD

Published: July 1, 2004

ALT LAKE CITY, June 30 - The men, all Muslims, kneeled in unison at evening prayers in the Khadeeja mosque, their incantations laced with anxiety over the fate of one of their spiritual brothers, a marine held captive on the other side of the world.

"Oh, Allah, we read the Koran to pray for the release of our brother Hassoun," the voice of the mosque's religious leader boomed over speakers around the white-walled room, referring to Cpl. Wassef Ali Hassoun, 24, whose family worships at the mosque.


At Salt Lake City's three mosques - two Sunni and one Shia - such supplications have become standard since Sunday, when news came of Corporal Hassoun's capture in Iraq.

Given its overwhelmingly Mormon population, Utah might seem an unlikely place for Muslim immigrants from Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Indonesia, Sudan and Pakistan. But the Muslim population of Utah has grown rapidly, to about 25,000, most of whom arrived in the last decade in the wake of conflicts around the world that in some cases involved ethnic cleansing.

The Iraqi community alone, its size swelled by the Persian Gulf war, numbers about 3,000. Many of the men are taxicab drivers here in Salt Lake City, where the street grid is designed around the location of Temple Square, the home of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Though far outnumbered by Mormons, some Muslims here point out how well the two faiths coexist, and have marveled at the way Mormons came forward to offer comfort not only after the attacks of Sept. 11 - in which about 500 Muslims are believed to have died - but also in the last few days.

On Monday, several Mormon women approached the Hassoun family in West Jordan, a Salt Lake City suburb, and asked if they could organize an event to raise awareness of Corporal Hassoun's predicament, one of the women, Irene Smith, said.

Ms. Smith said that members of the family, who have largely been in seclusion since Sunday, replied that prayers had already been arranged at the mosque, and that they were welcome to attend.

"We wanted to honor them during their special time in their sacred, um, what do you call this building?" Ms. Smith said, hesitating over the name of the Khadeeja mosque, as she joined a group of women, some Mormon, some Muslim, for prayers. "We feel like we are all a little part of a larger community."

The three Mormon women were given scarves to wear over their heads.

"To me, educating people about Islam is at least as important as praying for this man," said one of the Muslim women, Asha Patel, 23.

Ms. Patel - her father is Hindu, her mother Mormon - said the Salt Lake Mormon community was tolerant of Muslims, and noted similarities between the two faiths. Both have codes of modesty and urge abstention from smoking and drinking.

But many elements of Islamic culture are still misunderstood, Ms. Patel said. Occasionally, when she wears a head scarf, she has noticed people staring, and she is often asked what she is doing for Easter or Christmas, holidays she does not celebrate.

"For me, it is just another day," she said. "Some people are very taken aback; they are like, 'Why wouldn't you celebrate Easter?' "

Another of the women, Samar Omar, 20, said she did not believe that Salt Lake City was so tolerant. When she wears her head scarf in public, as she has done her whole life, she, too, notices the looks. "I see people just staring at me with hate and anger," she said. "You can read what they want to tell you on their faces."

After the gulf war, Ms. Omar, who was born in Kuwait, moved to Jordan and, seven years ago, to Salt Lake City. She said her family had not wanted to move to a bigger city like New York or Los Angeles, places that many Muslims believe are more dangerous than the Middle East.

"Salt Lake is more related to where we come from," Ms. Omar said. "It is very peaceful. You do not see a lot of cops running around."

But two days after Sept. 11, 2001, a Salt Lake man tried to set fire to a local restaurant owned by Pakistanis, in retaliation for the attacks.

Yet despite a community show of support for the restaurant, resentment of Muslims persisted.

"I had people come up to me and say, 'Go back to your country,' " Ms. Omar said. "It happened three or four times. I can tell some people think I am a terrorist."

After prayers, Shuaib-ud Din, the imam, or religious leader, at the Khadeeja mosque, said that life in Salt Lake City had become no more difficult after Sept. 11 than it was before. Relations with the Mormon community, he said, were good.

"There's no conflict between Muslims and Christians," he said. "To us, Jesus is a prophet. We accept the true teachings of Jesus, not the distorted teaching we hear today. We have no beef with the other faiths."

[Ciberblade]

Originally Posted by plschwartz

I do wonder how newbies get right to civilized (sic) Do we have a rep or do they get us from google searches (gulp, I'm sorry Mr. Ashcroft its only when I'm drunk., I do love your singing..)

My story: I first came here seeking a solution to a particularly difficult virus. After that I started wandering the halls, peeking into unlocked doors when I found a door that said "do not enter" (CivDeb). I tried to leave but I tripped over the rope that tied a person to a stake, then had to duck a swinging bat causing me to fall off the path and into the quicksand. Haven't found a way out since.

[Infidel_Kastro]

Originally Posted by autumn2003

I am American, born and raised in the Midwest. I am Muslim. What I am about to say some may or may not agree. I want it to be made known that I was totally against the Iraq Invasion and continue to be against the occupation of Iraq. I am totally against the Bush Administration and believe that it was this group who caused 9/11 and made it happen. I believe this Administration blamed Muslims for these attacks to justify the occupation of Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries. The USA has bases in many of the Muslim countries and this is not by accident. Since October 2002 I have protested, marched, given speeches. Each week I stand with a few of my fellow townspeople and protest on a corner of our little world about the policies of Bush and his company.

As an American I have the freedom to do this. I personally want to say how sorry I am for the abuse of my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters. America for years has abused and terrorized the world and has gotten away with this abuse and terrorism. I am not surprised that the punishment is now coming back to haunt the American people.

Why is America so surprised when we were attacked? We have been attacking countries for many years.

Why is America so surprised when the Iraqis begin to fight back once they realized the truth of this invasion? We killed 100's of thousands of Iraqis (the majority being children under the age of 12) since 1991 and then we are surprised when our people are killed?

Now comes the prison abuse of fellow brothers and sisters in Islam. For hours the US Congress and Senate sat and watched picture after picture of the abuse a couple of months ago. America is surprised that Islam is fighting back?

Now comes the Saudi government asking the terrorists to come back to Allah? How can these men who bow down to George W. Bush - or the other way around - Bush bowing to the Saudi government (I suggest the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 to explain this statement) - tell men who have the courage to stand up and fight for their beliefs and say enough is enough, to come back to Allah? The so-called terrorists are ones who have memorized the Quran (yet the American media says they are not educated), who say their prayers 5 times a day, and are not afraid to die in the name of Allah. How many Muslims can truthfully say they would take up arms right now and die in the name of Allah?

Islam has been attacked and it has been attacked savagely - by America and by Israel - and the Muslim leaders are so caught up in this American dream that they have forgotten the teachings of the Prophets. Would Muhammad (Peace Be Unto Him) bow to pressure or would he stand up for the teachings of Allah? Muslims are being killed by the hundreds and even thousands. Would Allah want us to stop this fight?

Inshallah if the Saudi government will give Amnesty to the fighters and not punish them for standing up for Islam. As an American and a Muslim I Pray that this is not a trap for those men who have truly stood up for what they know to be right and to say that what is happening to our fellow Muslim brothers and sisters is wrong. May Allah bless us as we spread his teachings world-wide and may Allah bless his people who have died for him.

So we should cut her some slack because she is married to an Iranian? Did I read that correctly?
Whatever, if you can't stand the heat, go back to random.

Sorry Autumn, you just opened a door, and I want to look inside:

I am totally against the Bush Administration and believe that it was this group who caused 9/11 and made it happen. I believe this Administration blamed Muslims for these attacks to justify the occupation of Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries. The USA has bases in many of the Muslim countries and this is not by accident.

I believe in conspiracy theories like I believe in the easter bunny. Its real easy to say "Oh Bush and his cronies did it, they caused all of this", but there is no PROOF. Just accept some crazy Muslims MF'ers, hell bent on destruction, caused this. And to be totally honest, if they were crazy Catholics, or any other religion, I would be saying the same thing. Yes, we have military bases in the ME. None in Israel and all by the cooperation's and request of the governments in the ME.

As an American I have the freedom to do this. I personally want to say how sorry I am for the abuse of my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters. America for years has abused and terrorized the world and has gotten away with this abuse and terrorism. I am not surprised that the punishment is now coming back to haunt the American people.

I am glad to see you exercising your rights, and now your BROTHERS AND SISTER IN IRAQ NOW HAVE THE CHANCE TO DO THE SAME THING. Isn't democracy wonderful, that is, until some scumbag with a religious zeal decides he wants to be anchorage and uses the Koran as his tool.

Why is America so surprised when we were attacked? We have been attacking countries for many years.

the why is the world surprised that we are fighting back, we were attacked.

Why is America so surprised when the Iraqis begin to fight back once they realized the truth of this invasion? We killed 100's of thousands of Iraqis (the majority being children under the age of 12) since 1991 and then we are surprised when our people are killed?

conjecture or fact? lets see the facts and stats on it before you try to illicit cheap response by attempting to tug on our heartstrings about dead kids.
The Iraqi's that are fighting back are either Baathists, sheep, or foreign insurgents. If the Iraqi people didn't want us there, this would be still going on in a more bloodier way.

Now comes the prison abuse of fellow brothers and sisters in Islam. For hours the US Congress and Senate sat and watched picture after picture of the abuse a couple of months ago. America is surprised that Islam is fighting back?

Did worse to my pledges, and its not like we beheaded someone, you know. care to explain Islams stance on that one?

Now comes the Saudi government asking the terrorists to come back to Allah? How can these men who bow down to George W. Bush - or the other way around - Bush bowing to the Saudi government (I suggest the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 to explain this statement) - tell men who have the courage to stand up and fight for their beliefs and say enough is enough, to come back to Allah? The so-called terrorists are ones who have memorized the Quran (yet the American media says they are not educated), who say their prayers 5 times a day, and are not afraid to die in the name of Allah. How many Muslims can truthfully say they would take up arms right now and die in the name of Allah?

So tell me, will you weep or praise Allah when one of your children decides to either strap on some C-4 or grab an AK and join the identified? If they are killed, will you weep for their memory or will you rejoice knowing that they are in Heaven, and by the way, there is no more room in Heaven for martyrs.

Islam has been attacked and it has been attacked savagely - by America and by Israel - and the Muslim leaders are so caught up in this American dream that they have forgotten the teachings of the Prophets. Would Muhammad (Peace Be Unto Him) bow to pressure or would he stand up for the teachings of Allah? Muslims are being killed by the hundreds and even thousands. Would Allah want us to stop this fight?

Islam has been hijacked by Muslims themselves looking for power and control, nothing more. Muslims have killed Muslims in Iraq, but where is the outcry? keep thinking this is the west's fault, and ignore the fact that Islam cannot control and police itself. (Bring on the catholic bashers)

Inshallah if the Saudi government will give Amnesty to the fighters and not punish them for standing up for Islam. As an American and a Muslim I Pray that this is not a trap for those men who have truly stood up for what they know to be right and to say that what is happening to our fellow Muslim brothers and sisters is wrong. May Allah bless us as we spread his teachings world-wide and may Allah bless his people who have died for him.

Why should we care if it is a trap? did they care when they kidnapped people off the streets and beheaded them, or attacked their apartment house? I hope its a trap. I hope someone is truly dumb enough to fall for this and I will fall over laughing when the get a bullet and die because they were dumb enough to admit that they were Al queda. That would be funnier than you not believing that even if you are Muslim, you would be an immediate target in the ME because of where you came from, and these pukes would have no problem chopping your head off for some hack political/religious statement, but thats fine, keep supporting them.
This is war folks, get your heads out of the sand and be practical. Its bloody, violent, rarely pretty and totally JUSTIFIABLE. For those that believe that this is Bush's fault, would you believe the same thing if Sept.11 had occurred during the Clinton administration, or do you all like to ***** just for the sake of bitching.

[Al-Firdaus]

Saudi's Keep Up The Spin; Unnamed AQ 'Militant' Killed
Jul 02, 2004
Source: Agencies

The Saudi Interior Ministry said on Friday police killed one militant and arrested another in a shootout on Thursday in which a policeman was also killed.
Security sources had said two militants were killed in the second shootout in as many days with suspected members of the Saudi wing of al Qaeda in the capital Riyadh.

The Interior Ministry said in a statement, carried on the state news agency SPA, that the two men were among militants who fled a security raid on militant hideouts in Riyadh on Wednesday when police killed a logistics operative for al Qaeda.

"A member of the National Guard alerted security forces about the two wanted men. When security forces closed in on them, they opened fire and security forces responded, killing one of them and wounding the other who was arrested."

"One security officer was killed and another was wounded and the National Guard officer was also wounded," the ministry said.

It did not name the militants. A hospital source told Reuters on Thursday the wounded militant was seriously injured.

A Saudi security official has said security forces were targeting a few militant safehouses in the capital which are being used to store weapons and equipment.

[plschwartz]

IK
Ever so paranoid
I thought we should cut her some slack because she is a newbe and she asked for it and is not a closed-minded fool as you often seem to be

[Infidel_Kastro]

Glad to see you posting good news for a change AF.

"Another one bites the dust".

[Infidel_Kastro]

Originally Posted by plschwartz

IK
Ever so paranoid
I thought we should cut her some slack because she is a newbe and she asked for it and is not a closed-minded fool as you often seem to be

Me close minded? Whatever, PL. Is she a newbie, fine, shes new, but she posts like a pro, and therefore, I am entitled to debate and exchange ideas, just like she did here.
A fool, I've been called worse, however, naive was never once mentioned.
Tell me where I am close minded? I just want to make sure I understand this, if i disagree with you, I must be close-minded and a fool. If you disagree with me, then as far as i'm concerned, its your opinion, nothing more, nothing less. but the difference i will at least listen to the left, amy ot agree with it, but I'll listen, and nothing I said to Autumn was untrue.

[plschwartz]

IK
1.
did you forget you posted this? So we should cut her some slack because she is married to an Iranian? Did I read that correctly?
Whatever, if you can't stand the heat, go back to random.

2. In My Fair Lady Eliza gets mad because Higgins patronizes her and she takes it personally. In true a Shavian (GB Shaw who wrote the book musical is taken from) manner He tells her that she is narrow-minded becuase she has not look ed at how he treats others. He is an equal opportunity patronizer.
So in that spirit I suggest that I called you a narrow-minded fool after some period of time observing you. It is not a predjudice you have clearly earned it.
I you were to ask me if I ever have found some on the left to be narrow minded fools I would say yes.