[rikzilla]

Although I was raised a Christian and as an adult was baptised in the Episcopal church...many nagging and unanswerable questions caused me to reject Christianity. There was not one reason I did so,...but many.

Just one reason can be found within the Bible itself. It contains many contradictions and absurdities. I have yet to hear a good reason why this book that was supposedly written by or under the direct influence of God, should contain so many internal contradictions. Why would God, who is perfect, do such a thing?

Anyway...due to the fact this is a bit off-topic for the Evolution-Creation thread I thought I'd address it here.

In evolution-creation I brought up the two Genesis stories and the fact that the order of creation for man, woman, and animals are told differently...in different orders. To start off this thread I'll ask the Bible one of the BIG questions:

DOES GOD KNOW AND SEE ALL THINGS?

here are the Bible's own answers: (that's right folks...answerS..plural)

A: God sees and knows all things:

Ps.44:21
"For he knoweth the secrets of the heart."
Ps.139:7-8
"Whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."
Pr.15:3
"The eyes of the Lord are in every place."
Jer.16:17
"For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes."
Jer.23:24
"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
Acts 1:24
"Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men."
-----------------------------------------------
A: God neither sees nor knows all things.


Gen.3:8
"And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord, amongst the trees of the garden."
Gen.4:14
"Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid."
Gen.4:16
"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden."
Gen.11:5
"And the Lord came down to see the city and the town."
Gen.18:9
"And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent."
Gen.18:17
"And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do?"
Gen.18:20-21
"And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and, if not, I will know."
Gen.22:12
"For now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Num.22:9
"And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee?"
Dt.8:2
"God led thee these forty years in the wilderness ... to know what what in thine heart."
Dt.13:3
"The Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God."
2 Chr:32:31
"God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart."
Job 1:7, 2:2
"And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
Hos.8:4
"They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not."

Seems something that simple we'd be able to get straight eh???

-z

[Ciberblade]

Like in the other thread...

The Bible was not written by God. The Bible was written by man, inspired by God. The errors, mostly perceived, is that of man's incapability to comprehend God.


How's that for a short answer

[sligo]

bump

[sligo]

Yes---so what makes the Bible special if it isn't really true and it was written by men?

[rikzilla]

Originally Posted by sligo

Yes---so what makes the Bible special if it isn't really true and it was written by men?

Exactly my point. The Bible can be used to "debunk" the Bible.

-z

[plschwartz]

Buddhist Sutra are know to have been "found" at different times and reflecting the increased sophistication of the religion in its development.
They seem to say that Buddha talks to his audience, like any good preacher, in a language they can understand. As they get more sophisticated in their thinking, the Buddha can present himself in a more sophisticated manner.
That certainly makes sense to me for a compassionate God. This is called I believe the use of skillful means.
And indeed Christian missionaries seldom preach from Aquinas.

The message of Christ as developed by Christianity presupposes Plato, and perhaps the entire range of experiences of the first century member of the Roman Empire.
If Moses had tried to use Platonic ideas his people would still be in the wilderness

To limit God from this kind of freedom is for the person to feel better. It is making God in Mans image

For
What Does the Lord Require?
(Micah 6:8)


"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?" (NKJV)

[jaye944]

rik,

many people have debated this since time.

so I'll give you my thoughts

1> To know what God knows you must be God:
In other words we dont know why God does the things he does (or seemingly) does'nt do, cos we aint God, we dont have his view of all things and all time.

2> Does God see and know everything ?
I'd bet my bottom dollar on that he does.

3> The Bible.
I choose (my own personal belief) is that although they "are" the word/inspiraton of God and/or his angels. I suspect an ammount is down to the Chinese whispers. After handing down, and telling and retelling, things may have changed.

I believe Genesis (the creation) is man's interpretation of explaing how the world was created. The important thing is not how but "was" it created with the push/hand of God or by nothing other than chance.

Even scientists can't explain why or how the "big bang took place" only that it propably did.

In other arguments I've had on-line. I found a truth. That you either have to have faith that "The overall message and miracles in the bible are true" or not.

and just to leave you with a final thought.

1> It's not necessary to know intimatley how or why a car works, only that, you put petrol in it, start the car up and drive to where you want to go and also you must learn how to drive befroe doing so.

[jaye944]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

Exactly my point. The Bible can be used to "debunk" the Bible.

-z

go out with 4 friends, maybe to a public function, say an execution.

now you and your friends write down an account of what you saw, maybe a while afterwards.

you will all wrrite a different account, now, hide you diary in basement.
your house is bought by a foreginer. who finds your 4 diary's.
he does not know who wrote what or in what order, he has a rudmentary grasp of your language and your diarys are falling to pieces, he copies and translates your diarys.

question:
Did the execution take place ?
Does it matter that your accounts are different ?

If you read, the 4 gospels.
They "ALL" have a slighly different view and interpretation of the crucifiction and the days afterwards.

And dont forget they also DIDNT write this all down as it was happening but a while afterwards from memory.

Me, I can't remember what I had for dinner yesterday let alone what I had for dinner 3 months ago

[rikzilla]

Originally Posted by jaye944

go out with 4 friends, maybe to a public function, say an execution.

now you and your friends write down an account of what you saw, maybe a while afterwards.

you will all wrrite a different account, now, hide you diary in basement.
your house is bought by a foreginer. who finds your 4 diary's.
he does not know who wrote what or in what order, he has a rudmentary grasp of your language and your diarys are falling to pieces, he copies and translates your diarys.

question:
Did the execution take place ?
Does it matter that your accounts are different ?

If you read, the 4 gospels.
They "ALL" have a slighly different view and interpretation of the crucifiction and the days afterwards.

And dont forget they also DIDNT write this all down as it was happening but a while afterwards from memory.

Me, I can't remember what I had for dinner yesterday let alone what I had for dinner 3 months ago

True, but you and your 4 friends are not claiming to write the inerrant and inspired word of God are you?

Actually the only people I intend to (try) to reach with this are those who hold rigid fundamentalist beliefs. It is they who say the Bible is inerrant, not you nor I.

-z

[rikzilla]

Originally Posted by jaye944

rik,

many people have debated this since time.

so I'll give you my thoughts

1> To know what God knows you must be God:
In other words we dont know why God does the things he does (or seemingly) does'nt do, cos we aint God, we dont have his view of all things and all time.

True, but we do have His word. If He is really God his word should at least agree with His word. Eh?? Not to mention that His word should also agree with the archeological record. But that's another thread.

2> Does God see and know everything ?
I'd bet my bottom dollar on that he does.

You would then lose your bottom dollar. His word both agrees and disagrees with your belief.

3> The Bible.
I choose (my own personal belief) is that although they "are" the word/inspiraton of God and/or his angels. I suspect an ammount is down to the Chinese whispers. After handing down, and telling and retelling, things may have changed.

You interpret in other words. A fine and reasonable thing to do IMHO,...this is however not what fundies are allowed to do.

I believe Genesis (the creation) is man's interpretation of explaing how the world was created. The important thing is not how but "was" it created with the push/hand of God or by nothing other than chance.

Yes, but in the how are clues to the question. If the question is: "Did God create the world?" Then the answer can be discerned by "God's" account of how He did it. If his explanation makes no sense...then He likely DIDN'T do it. Now, that's not to say that SOME GOD didn't create the Earth....the only God ruled out is the Christian God. OTOH I'm quite confident other Gods can also be ruled out...maybe even based on their own errored gospels...but here we are only questioning the Biblical record as believed by fundamentalist Christians.

Even scientists can't explain why or how the "big bang took place" only that it propably did.

Well, they all agree that at some point there was a singularity...an incredibly dense black hole that exploded it's matter outwards. Most scientists agree that it happened because it fits the evidence that the universe is still expanding. It's a theory that explains the characteristics of the viewable universe. Science encourages debate among scientists...that they debate should not be taken as disagreement. If a better theory comes out of their debate it will be accepted and science will advance. If not, then the BB is likely correct.

In other arguments I've had on-line. I found a truth. That you either have to have faith that "The overall message and miracles in the bible are true" or not.

Exactly. This truth is something that the Biblical literalist cannot accept. If they do accept it, then they have to logically abandon their attempts to get ID taught in public schools. Individual faith can hold no official place in the public square of a puralistic society. We are a secular nation of many faiths. That we are majority Christian does not mean that we are a "Christian nation".

and just to leave you with a final thought.

1> It's not necessary to know intimatley how or why a car works, only that, you put petrol in it, start the car up and drive to where you want to go and also you must learn how to drive befroe doing so.

That's true...but a car is not a mystery. It doesn't work by magic. It obeys the laws of physics...hence it is not miraculous. Supernatural miracles do not happen. Ever. If they did there would be evidence.

The age of miracles was really an age of deception...and ancient people were easily decieved and thereby led. Today it's a bit harder to decieve skeptical people...of course credulous people are still numerous. They are the same kind of folks who pay Sylvia Browne $700 for a private "reading".

PT Barnum was right...

-z

[EdGreene]

Is the Bible the INERRANT word of God???

The Bible is 1000% true, for people who believe it is. So your question is rhetorical.

[jaye944]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

True, but you and your 4 friends are not claiming to write the inerrant and inspired word of God are you?

Actually the only people I intend to (try) to reach with this are those who hold rigid fundamentalist beliefs. It is they who say the Bible is inerrant, not you nor I.

-z

My point was that the Gospel's were a mixture of experience's, inspirations and testimony's.

Also, I do think that even if we had proof, that is if God came down now and did an interview on 60minutes, even trew in a miracle or 2 you'd still have people saying "fake"

It's probably more important wether God believe's in you rather than the other way round

[iltos]

Originally Posted by EdGreene

The Bible is 1000% true, for people who believe it is. So your question is rhetorical.

but i don't think the point is to try and dispel faith by pointing out the inconsistenties in the bible....it is to point out that faith in a creator and his creation does not need or warrant the creation of a science to support it....as you say, people either have faith in a christain view, or they don't....an attempt to legitimize it from a secular standpoint is, to my way of thinking, at the very least demeaning to those with faith, and at its worst, a dangerous misuse of the scientific method.

[jaye944]

Originally Posted by rikzilla

True, but we do have His word. If He is really God his word should at least agree with His word. Eh?? Not to mention that His word should also agree with the archeological record. But that's another thread.

I think there's a lot more information out there that we don't have access to the vatican for example have various records and books which they will not publish. Without the whole story and without knowing 100% that the word written down has not be mistranslated or misunderstood. I think trying to proove wether it is God's 100% word or not is down to the believer.

You would then lose your bottom dollar. His word both agrees and disagrees with your belief.

I choose to belive that I would not loose my bottom dollar.
see above, is what is being quoted 100% or 99.95% ?

You interpret in other words. A fine and reasonable thing to do IMHO,...this is however not what fundies are allowed to do.

yeah I see that, my sister for one won't even entertain the fact that there is even the smallest possibility that text is wrong, incomplete or an interpretation.

Yes, but in the how are clues to the question. If the question is: "Did God create the world?" Then the answer can be discerned by "God's" account of how He did it. If his explanation makes no sense...then He likely DIDN'T do it. Now, that's not to say that SOME GOD didn't create the Earth....the only God ruled out is the Christian God. OTOH I'm quite confident other Gods can also be ruled out...maybe even based on their own errored gospels...but here we are only questioning the Biblical record as believed by fundamentalist Christians.

Also, maybe another way of looking at this point. Explain to somone in there language how something happened.

Explain to a child in a childs language how a plane flies
Explain to a native person living in the jungle what flu is and how it can kill.
Up untill recently we all "knew" the world was flat.

I think that "in the understanding that God inspired the writing of Genesis" it was given to the person in a way that his mind could handle it.

OR.............

A man sat down and tried to make sense of his world and wrote down how he thought it came about ?

Well, they all agree that at some point there was a singularity...an incredibly dense black hole that exploded it's matter outwards. Most scientists agree that it happened because it fits the evidence that the universe is still expanding. It's a theory that explains the characteristics of the viewable universe. Science encourages debate among scientists...that they debate should not be taken as disagreement. If a better theory comes out of their debate it will be accepted and science will advance. If not, then the BB is likely correct.

Thats not what i was asking, at some point, you have to ask "how and why" did it happen. The math and Physics can proove a lot of it. BUt the math wont say "why" it happened, just keep asking why enough times and you will get to a stage where you answer "I'm sorry I dont know".

At that point what every logical and possible explanation has been explored and rejected, then the impossible and illogical can only be accepted.

Exactly. This truth is something that the Biblical literalist cannot accept. If they do accept it, then they have to logically abandon their attempts to get ID taught in public schools. Individual faith can hold no official place in the public square of a puralistic society. We are a secular nation of many faiths. That we are majority Christian does not mean that we are a "Christian nation".

Going to Church does not make you a Christian anymore than sleeping in a garage make you a car

That's true...but a car is not a mystery. It doesn't work by magic. It obeys the laws of physics...hence it is not miraculous. Supernatural miracles do not happen. Ever. If they did there would be evidence.

to you and me,,no, to quote an old Tarzan film (sorry for being non-PC)
"White man come flying in big bird"

The age of miracles was really an age of deception...and ancient people were easily decieved and thereby led. Today it's a bit harder to decieve skeptical people...of course credulous people are still numerous. They are the same kind of folks who pay Sylvia Browne $700 for a private "reading".

yesssh thats true cant deny that one. were people being decieved by ???

ahhh, religion the opiate of the masses.

[jaye944]

Originally Posted by iltos

but i don't think the point is to try and dispel faith by pointing out the inconsistenties in the bible....it is to point out that faith in a creator and his creation does not need or warrant the creation of a science to support it....as you say, people either have faith in a christain view, or they don't....an attempt to legitimize it from a secular standpoint is, to my way of thinking, at the very least demeaning to those with faith, and at its worst, a dangerous misuse of the scientific method.

I don't think that God allows us to proove that he exist's or doesnt exist.
It's by our faith that we know he does and that is all that is needed.