[MrSatire]

Bush's faith-based changes scrutinized
He has made changes without Congress' OK

President Bush has gone "under the radar" and around the Congress to spread his faith-based initiative throughout the federal government, according to a new study released Monday
SEE THIS LINK FOR COMPLETE ARTICLE:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NGLC89C1I1.DTL

Comment on above article:
President Bush’s actions are dangerous because he favors certain religious groups.
You will love Bush’s actions if you are a born again Christian like Bush,
But if you don’t share his narrow beliefs, you are left out in the cold.
Bush has refused to release documents linked to his faith based efforts.

Some of the possibilities are absolutely ridiculous.
Should the department of agriculture have a “pray for rain” department?
Our founding fathers had the wisdom to separate church and state.
Why? Because the government should not promote one set of religious beliefs over another.
Bush should recognize this wise American constitutional separation.
All Americans do not want to be born again Christians.

[bassetman]

I hear the ones who give him the names etc of their congregation for donation soliciting are more likely to get "Faith Based" funding!

[MrSatire]

Originally Posted by bassetman

I hear the ones who give him the names etc of their congregation for donation soliciting are more likely to get "Faith Based" funding!

This is scary because his administration is still refusing to release documents on this issue.

[4steve44]

Originally Posted by MrSatire

Comment on above article:
President Bush’s actions are dangerous because he favors certain religious groups.
You will love Bush’s actions if you are a born again Christian like Bush,
But if you don’t share his narrow beliefs, you are left out in the cold.
Bush has refused to release documents linked to his faith based efforts.

Some of the possibilities are absolutely ridiculous.
Should the department of agriculture have a “pray for rain” department?
Our founding fathers had the wisdom to separate church and state.
Why? Because the government should not promote one set of religious beliefs over another.
Bush should recognize this wise American constitutional separation.
All Americans do not want to be born again Christians.

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
So where in this document does it mention that there should be a separation between Church and state. Please copy and paste that part here

[bassetman]

They are burying more information than all the other Admins put together, and Daddy Bush broke that record before Jr. came along.

[4steve44]

What? Nobody here can find in the US Constitution where it mentions separation of Church and state?

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by 4steve44

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
So where in this document does it mention that there should be a separation between Church and state. Please copy and paste that part here

Government Sponsoring Religion

It is unconstitutional for local, state or federal governments
to favor one religion over another? Government can show favoritism
toward religion by displaying religious symbols in public places
at taxpayer expense, by sponsoring events like Christmas concerts,
caroling, or by supporting the teaching of religious ideas. It appears
the United States government has had a history of favoring
Christianity.

The United States government's favoritism of Christianity is a
clear violation of the First Amendment. This amendment states that
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof." There is another reference to
religion in Article 6, Section 3. This clause states "the United
States and the several States shall be bound by oath or affirmation to
support this Constitution, but no religious test shall ever be
required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the
United States."

There have been several court cases on this and related issues
which include Engel vs. Vitale, Everson vs. the Board of Education,
and Lynch vs. Donnelly, the "Creche case".

In 1947, in the Everson vs. Board of Education case, the
Supreme Court ruled that the 14th amendment prevented the States and
the and the Federal government from setting up a church, passing laws
that favor any religion, or using tax money to support any religion.
Justice Hugo Black "incorporated" the First Amendment's establishment
clause into the 14th Amendment which states that "the State shall not
deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of laws
and due process. After this trial, people began to question whether
school prayer was constitutional (pg. 93-94, Klinker).

The "creche case," Lynch vs. Donnelly, came from Rhode Island
in 1980. In this case, the city offical included a creche, or nativity
scene, in their city's annual Christmas display that included all
traditional Christmas symbols. Chief Justice Warren E. Burger
represented the court's opinion when he stated that, "Nor does the
constitution require complete separation of church and state; it
affirmatively mandates accommodation, not merely tolerance, of all
religions, and forbids hostility toward any." Justices Brennan,
Marshall, Blackman, and Stevens dissented. They thought the "primary
effect of including a nativity scene in the city's display is. . . to
place the government's impremature approval on the particular
religion's beliefs exemplified by the creche." They argued that it
clearly violated the First Amendment (p. 99, Witt).

These cases demonstrate a pattern of Constitutional thought by
high courts prohibiting the promotion of particular religious ideas,
and the spending of tax dollars on events that promote particular
religious views. A logical extension of this pattern can be made to
the spending of tax dollars for decorating towns on religious
holidays, such as Christmas.

Local, state, and federal governments attempt to get around
the prohibitions of the Everson and Lynch cases by decorating the
streets in town with non-religious symbols such as lights, trees,
wreaths and other objects that symbolize the season. But, religious
people think the season itself has religious meaning. Using tax money
to decorate for a religious holiday not celebrated by everyone is
unconstitutional because these symbols support one religion over no
religion. The First Amendment prohibits this.

We understand that public school prayer discriminates against
some religious views so it is prohibited in public schools. Similarly,
Christmas concerts play a role similar to the teaching of creationism
and prayer. The Christmas concerts subconsiously influence students
toward the beliefs of Christianity. To be fair to non-Christian
groups, converting "Christmas" concerts to "Holiday" concerts would
maintain the "separation of church and state."

One could recognize the beliefs of many religions or none. One
could play music from several religions or non-religious music.
Religion is a personal belief. There are so many religions to choose
from, including the choice of no religion. It is impossible to decide
that one belief is right and another is wrong. So it is reasonable to
say that it is unconstitutional for government to favor Christianity
over other religions, including Athieism. Instead of using tax dollars
to decorate the streets for the holidays, we could use the money for
other things like playgrounds and helping the homeless. Also, students
could play music that has no religious meaning to please every belief
or offend none. This way, government would be prevented from favoring
one religion over another.

---
References

Henry, Richard, "Government in America", Houghton Mifflin Company,
Boston, 1994 pg.141, 146, 148.

Klinker, Philip A., "The American Heritage History of the Bill of
Rights", Silver Burdett Press., 1991 pg. 99-100, 109, 93.

"Darrow, Clarence Steward", "The American Peoples Encyclopedia vol.6
", Grolier Incorporated, New York 1962, pg. 796.

Witt, Elder ,"The Supreme Court and Individual Rights", Second
Edition, Congressional Quarterly Inc., Washington D.C., 1988, pg. 99

http://www.cyberessays.com/Politics/77.htm

[MrSatire]

Originally Posted by 4steve44

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
So where in this document does it mention that there should be a separation between Church and state. Please copy and paste that part here

Nice Try!
The seperation of church and state is found in the first amendment.
So I guess it was just by accident that you forgot about all the amendments.
I guess the BILL OF RIGHTS is not that important to you!
My first link will help you out.
It explains the historical reasons why the founding fathers seperated church and state.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/scs_intr.htm
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by 4steve44

What? Nobody here can find in the US Constitution where it mentions separation of Church and state?

Yup!

Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[angelize56]

Actually it's too bad so many people are trying to separate God from everything they can! I know everyone isn't religious and everyone shares different views on God and the Bible...but it's a shame the way people seem to go after anything in our country anymore with even the word God in it! No wonder our nation continues in it's immoral ways and headed towards doom! I have and always will believe in God...a belief that was passed on from generation to generation in my family and which I am passing on to my son. I'm glad to know Bush is a Christian! You can separate church and state...but you can't separate God from anyone believing in Him! Take care. angel

*Resume Topic*

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by MrSatire

Nice Try!
The seperation of church and state is found in the first amendment.
So I guess it was just by accident that you forgot about all the amendments.
I guess the BILL OF RIGHTS is not that important to you!
My first link will help you out.
It explains the historical reasons why the founding fathers seperated church and state.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/scs_intr.htm
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Beat me to it with some additional links too!

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by angelize56

Actually it's too bad so many people are trying to seperate God from everything they can! I know everyone isn't religious and everyone shares different views on God and the Bible...but it's a shame the way people seem to go after anything in our country anymore with even the word God in it! No wonder our nation continues in it's immoral ways and headed towards doom! I have and always will believe in God...a belief that was passed on from generation to generation in my family and which I am passing on to my son. I'm glad to know Bush is a Christian! You can seperate church and state...but you can't seperate God from anyone believing in Him! Take care. angel

*Resume Topic*

Angel, you could always move to the Middle East, God is in everything thay do!
Not yours, but that the price you pay for Freedom Dear!

[iltos]

the first amendment.....
Article [I.]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.......

this is the groundwork for the tenet known as the "separation of church and state"

[angelize56]

Baklava: You know what I mean! I prefer to stay here in my Methodist religion thank you! You couldn't pay me to go to the Middle East! Take care! angel

Time for a Baklava Break I think!

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by angelize56

Baklava: You know what I mean! I prefer to stay here in my Methodist religion thank you! You couldn't pay me to go to the Middle East! Take care! angel

Time for a Baklava Break I think!

I know what you meant. Just trying to get you to say what you mean!