[Wet Chicken]

I just heard about this on CNN.

Whether it was from the terrorist or not, our prayers go out to those who were killed and lost, and their families

...anyone else know more about this please post...

[Wino]

http://forums.techguy.org/showthread.php?p=1886617

[Wet Chicken]

Whoops... my bad

I've never read that thread so I didn't know that's what it was being used for

[lighthouse]

If it is terrorists then it's the first time I think they've ever highjacked Russian aircraft - or at least the first incident like this we've been told about!!!

[dimamo1983]

just watched the news on russian news channel. unlike previously reported in another post, one plane (that crashed near Rostov) was Tu154 (not both). The other one was Tu134 (crashed in Tula region). Both flight originated in Moscow and flew towards southern parts of Russia (Sochi and Volgograd).

No official statement have been released yet, but they are looking into "all possibilities".

Tu154 broke into two pieces right before it hit the ground with tail section landing about a kilometer away from the front part.

Witnesses of Tu134 crash reported hearing multiple blasts and it appeared that pilots tried to stear the plane away from the village.

And to respond to lighthouse, terrorist highjaking unfortunatelly happen quite frequently in russia. The last one, if i remember correctly happened less than a year ago.

[lighthouse]

I was aware of stuff like the Theatre occupation and you'll frequently get news of bombings in Moscow (usually linked to Chechen seperatists) - but aircraft highjackings never got that much of a mention in the UK media.

[deh]

Look at this coincidence:


Autonomous Republic of Chechnya (Federation of Russia), 29 August 2004 - The federal and Chechen authorities decided to organise presidential elections on 29 August 2004 in the autonomous Republic of Chechnya (Federation of Russia), its President, Akhmad KADYROV, having been victim of a terrorist attack on 9 May.

[lighthouse]

I just found myself listening to/playing loads of Russian music yesterday as a gesture of support and goodwill to ALL peaceful peoples of the Russian Federation ........... Well, what else can you do?

[lighthouse]

Besides which, we're in the same club (EU) as some of those former soviet states now.

[lighthouse]

The depressing thing about Chechnia is that they saw a lot of other former Soviet states gain independance after 1992 and probably thought that they would get the same. Unlike the Baltic states, Ukraine, Belorussia, Armenia etc, Chechnia is oil rich, and has an important pipeline running right through it which makes Moscow reluctant to allow it the same status as some other parts of the old USSR. The Chechens probably realise that its principal mineral resource would make it a very rich per-capita economy and thus their fight is made more determined. Some sort of devolved government like they have in Northern Ireland is about the most they'll get towards this but it's the usual unstoppable hitting the unmovable situation, though not an entirely new phenomenon. Tolstoy wrote home while he was in the old imperial Russian army, telling his parents about the war with "Those troublesome Asiatics". It's more people on all sides being killed either directly or indirectly because of oil. You don't suppose the world would become a more peaceful place once all the oil finally runs out?

[dimamo1983]

alright, Chechnya has never been an autonomous country or a Soviet state. There were fifteen states that made up the USSR (you've mentioned three - Ukraine, Belorus, and Armenia). Chechnya has never been on that list. It was a part of Russia. Chechens never wanted independence. This is why I'm sick of all this "rebel" crap. These people are as much rebels as the scum that explodes bombs in buses in Israel or uses car bombs to hit civilians in Iraq and Pakistan. All of them are financed by same people, train together, and "fight" for no purpose at all except killing civilians. As one Russian writer once put, "why is it when Americans get killed, it's called terrorism, but when Russians get killed it's called a 'struggle for independence'?"

[linskyjack]

Dimano, precisely. This is just an attempt of the Muslims to creat a theocracy and move west ward. I'm behind Putin on this one. He must do whatever is necessary.

[Wino]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Dimano, precisely. This is just an attempt of the Muslims to creat a theocracy and move west ward. I'm behind Putin on this one. He must do whatever is necessary.

With 'extreme prejudice'!

[lighthouse]

So if it isn't about independance - then what is it about? I can't see how a paramilitary organisation would get into a conflict with a vastly superior force (in terms of manpower and machinery) if the ultimate aim wasn't some sort of independence! The totally religious dimension might have applied in Tolstoys time - but the over-riding contemporary motive here is self-determination. Yeah - there's the inevitable 'rent-a-guerilla' angle to it now as A'Q operatives get involved in the conflict......which directly brings in the USA governments 'War on Terrorism' strategy/policy. But then, does the islamic insurgent angle simply apply because the Chechens happen to be Muslim. What if they weren't - and so got paramilitary assistance from elsewhere, eg; Sino-communists or something? I stress the Devolved government option in my previous posting (a la Northern Ireland) because that's about all Chechnya will likely get towards independence anyway - ever! The Ulster Republican movement being our equivalent of Chechen to Russian. It's often described in the media as "the autonomous state of..........." anyway! There is a lot of enmity between the Russians and Chechen-ingush people going back centuries and any economic or Political-economic dimension over the last few decades simply makes it worse. The prejudice on both sides given added imputus by the potential Political and economic incentive for one, and the refusal to allow same by the the other. RESULT? Impasse!!!

Russia has been through tumultuous change in the last 12 years or so - and although the oligarch economy might have made a few spectacularly rich, a large part of the population are rather poor. Examples of Russian poverty include people travelling from rural areas as far west as they can get, pitching up in town centres in Poland, and the former Czechoslovakia etc to sell used bits of LADA cars, or Vega radios etc - quite desperate really. Chechen independence could mean wealth for the million or so Chechens (hence the per-capita reference - ie; not many Chechens for any revenue to go around) but the poverty experienced by Russian federation people generally is increased, therefore Putin has to retain as much control of all federation mineral resources. Putins job is unenviable, and a valid question here would be how would the Russians find alternative income in the very unlikely event the Chechens got independence? Would Independence somehow placate the Chechen people as they become subject to the internationally acccepted rules that other soveriegn states adhere to, and would it result in a dramatic enhancement of lifestyle for all Chechens, or just a minority of new-oligarch type business people? Obviously this is all hypothesis - the reality being that Theatres get put under siege, hijacked Planes drop out of the sky, and entire schools get taken hostage. It all adds to the hardship of a people whose entire biography is filled with harrowing experience.

What would I say to the Chechen Terrorists? Go and talk to Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness, Eamon Collins etc about their change of Policy. In the interests of peace in the Caucasus, is there a John Hulme somewhere in the Russian federation, and a George Mitchell 2 in the US Senate?

[lighthouse]

.............and here's something to think about. All the terrorists involved with the recent school siege in the Caucasus were Saudi, which obviously suggests OBL and his henchmen. Vladimir Putin has a reputation for being a seriously tough Politician whose background in the KGB suggests a toughness probably not found in many others who are from the legal profession or buisiness. He quite probably had a rep for being a seriously tough KGB agent too - and considering his acendancy to the presidency, and where that presidency is, he's probably one of the toughest of the toughest. A few Chechens - by virtue of their - erm - unconventional business accumen skills, and their ongoing feud with Moscow/Petrograd are gonna be streetwise enough to realise this, and be very aware of the consequences of taking a school hostage and killing hundreds of young people.

The Chechen/Russian war of the 90s was fought in a fairly conventional way, involving military and paramilitary elements, and the Russian army fought to a standstill on the streets of Grozny. The Chechen Nationalist cause is very clear, the aim being complete independence for Chechnya in the same way as other former soviet states, which will - or could at least - present the situation with potential for negotiation should circumstances ever allow. This makes them similar to other terrorist groups in the world like the IRA - who wanted a united Ireland - or the PLO who were after a homeland for the Palestinian people, while ETA are/were 'fighting' for an independent Basque state in northern Spain.........All quite unambiguous really, and presenting something to base discussion between the two sides on.

Does anyone know what Al Qaidas aims or objectives are? Although there's no vindicating the taking of life by anyone in the name of anything there is a clear difference between the above groupings (even Ulster Loyalist paramilitary aims simply said an unambiguous "No way" to the IRA with their own guns and bombs), and one that has no clearly defined objective at all. Concidering all of the above - and Putins recent announcement to launch his own war on terrorism (looking at Grozny while he said it) - should any Chechen, even Chechen Nationalist, simply tell OBL and his - erm - 'Freedom' fighters? to "clear off" and take his counter-productive 'organisation' with him? Al Qaidas involvement anywhere is anathema to any chance of a peaceful settlement to any conflict.

In the interests of peace in another part of the world - Israel/Palestine, with Arafat gone - I hope that even the most militant Palestinian resists any attempted assistance/interference by these people because whatever might have transpired in that particular conflict could escalate quite horribly, provoking a backlash on people who already know too much war as it is. Death by terrorism is bad enough, whether it's directly through the bomb or the bullet of an insurgent, or indirectly through the state response as collateral casualties - but the consequences of A'Q involvement is unimaginable!!!