[linskyjack]

Just wanted to take a second in this age of partisan poltics to salute Senator Luger and Senator Hagel for their courageous stance on Iraq. Although I disagree with most of their politics, I admire their amazing courage in calling for a re-evaluation of our Iraqi policy. They had to transcend the petty politics of this insane run for the White House and do what's right for this country. To a degree, they have restored my faith in this country.

[Wet Chicken]

Yes we need more like them that put the country first!

[Mulder_Lite]

I thought this thread was going to be about Mulder and Mulder_Lite!

[linskyjack]

That would be a salute to two great Foothill Ranchers! --I do know that Foothill Ranch is a country unto itself.

[Rollin' Rog]

linskyjack, I'm afraid you miss the point here. These two gentlemen, along with Democratic Senator Biden and some others are setting the stage for a massive use of ground force to occupy and hold those regions in Iraq where the continued presence of resistance will surely make elections untenable or not representative.

It can't be done. Their ideas are based on the same false premise of the current policy: that the resistance represents a minority of "bad guys" and if only we could "eliminate" them the "good guys" can take over.

The majority population in these areas have nothing but contempt and suspicion for us and the Iraqi "government".

We can capture those cities at great human cost and suffering, but we can never control them long term. We don't have the forces to do it. And Alawi never will.

Unfortunately neither candidate and neither party can resolve this quagmire (worse than Vietnam, really) unless it is willing to approach it in the context of a general reversal of our Middle East policy of almost unqualified support for Israel. Until that happens Arabs and Moslems generally will never see us as anything but Israel's surrogate.

[linskyjack]

RollinRog---thanks for that bit of information. It is nice to see that someone in this very confusing world can actually predict the future. Do you have a 900 number we can call? By the way, Iraq has nothing to do with Israel. Thats just radical leftists jingoism.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by Rollin' Rog

linskyjack, I'm afraid you miss the point here. These two gentlemen, along with Democratic Senator Biden and some others are setting the stage for a massive use of ground force to occupy and hold those regions in Iraq where the continued presence of resistance will surely make elections untenable or not representative.

It can't be done. Their ideas are based on the same false premise of the current policy: that the resistance represents a minority of "bad guys" and if only we could "eliminate" them the "good guys" can take over.

The majority population in these areas have nothing but contempt and suspicion for us and the Iraqi "government".

We can capture those cities at great human cost and suffering, but we can never control them long term. We don't have the forces to do it. And Alawi never will.

Unfortunately neither candidate and neither party can resolve this quagmire (worse than Vietnam, really) unless it is willing to approach it in the context of a general reversal of our Middle East policy of almost unqualified support for Israel. Until that happens Arabs and Moslems generally will never see us as anything but Israel's surrogate.

Thanks for joining in Rog! I wish you would share your knowledge and perspectives here more often, although I get the impression you don't like to do that much.

[Rollin' Rog]

Lol, when I do it's usually late at night and I have had too much to drink...

The die has been cast on most of these issues, and there is really not much to say except to rant and rave at the Idiocy that got us here.

Frankly there is little difference between the Kerry and Bush "visions" for solving the Iraq quagmire, save the latter's manure eating grin.

As for Iraq having nothing to do with Israel -- linskyjack -- you are so mistaken. It has everything to do with it. The neocons who sold Bush this war had and still have the notion that what is best for Israel is best for the United States. The problem is that the rest of the Arab/Moslem world does not agree. And they are right.

[plschwartz]

Originally Posted by Rollin' Rog

Lol, when I do it's usually late at night and I have had too much to drink...

The die has been cast on most of these issues, and there is really not much to say except to rant and rave at the Idiocy that got us here.

Frankly there is little difference between the Kerry and Bush "visions" for solving the Iraq quagmire, save the latter's manure eating grin.

As for Iraq having nothing to do with Israel -- linskyjack -- you are so mistaken. It has everything to do with it. The neocons who sold Bush this war had and still have the notion that what is best for Israel is best for the United States. The problem is that the rest of the Arab/Moslem world does not agree. And they are right.

I think I already quoted from "the Invisible Man" but here again:
Ellison tells the story of a sharecropper where the family shares a bed, waking up and finding himself in his daughter. He realizes that staying still was a sin and pulling out was a sin

[linskyjack]

Well actually, the neoconservative view of America and Israel is a bit more complex then you describe. Fact is, the concept of US Hegemony in the Middle East, is the ruling neo-conservative tenet that describes Iraq. If you are unfamiliar it goes like this. The US is the only remaining super-power. The US has an interest in the Middle East because of oil. The US has an interest in Middle Eastern countries patterning themselves after us---free market republics. Iraq was considered to be one of the more secular of Middle Eastern and thus a place to begin a revolution throughout the Middle East. Of course this has little to do with Israel and more to do with geo-political theories. Unfortunately, this theory is fatally flawed.

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Well actually, the neoconservative view of America and Israel is a bit more complex then you describe. Fact is, the concept of US Hegemony in the Middle East, is the ruling neo-conservative tenet that describes Iraq. If you are unfamiliar it goes like this. The US is the only remaining super-power. The US has an interest in the Middle East because of oil. The US has an interest in Middle Eastern countries patterning themselves after us---free market republics. Iraq was considered to be one of the more secular of Middle Eastern and thus a place to begin a revolution throughout the Middle East. Of course this has little to do with Israel and more to do with geo-political theories. Unfortunately, this theory is fatally flawed.

The Israelis have their own agenda, and never discount their influence on U.S. Policy.
I have to agree with Rollin'rog. As long as we ignore the effect that Israel plays--we are in for trouble--in the entire region and beyond.
It is complex in its whole scope, but Israel plays major role in our current problems. A very BIG subject!. Oil , of course , plays a role, as do some other things.
I try to look at militant feelings---what would make me fight, and then look and see if they have merit. Unfortunatly, some things appear to have merit.>f

[linskyjack]

Originally Posted by Fidelista

The Israelis have their own agenda, and never discount their influence on U.S. Policy.
I have to agree with Rollin'rog. As long as we ignore the effect that Israel plays--we are in for trouble--in the entire region and beyond.
It is complex in its whole scope, but Israel plays major role in our current problems. A very BIG subject!. Oil , of course , plays a role, as do some other things.
I try to look at militant feelings---what would make me fight, and then look and see if they have merit. Unfortunately, some things appear to have merit.>f

If you want to understand this brand of "militant" feelings, you should spend many hours studying the Medieval nature of Islam. I have no desire to understand "militant" feelings in Islam. I have a great desire to destroy terrorists. Any true progressive would have to agree.

As far as Israel goes, again, the United States and Israel have similar interests and have had so since before neo-conservatism existed. The "Israelis" have no more influence on American policy then you or I. They are just one of many special interest groups competing for attention. Of course, the Egyptian government gets billions of dollars from us---and of course we don't hear about undue Egyptian influence on American policy. In one sense, the radical left in this country, in it's one-sided demonization of Israel, is much akin to the repressive Arab regimes, that use Israelis and Jews (they don't differentiate) as a focus for their oppressed masses, who live in squalor and suffer great indignities. As they keep the masses focused on the Jews, the masses tend to forget about the butchers they live under. Then again, this was the same strategy used by Hitler in the 1930's.

[plschwartz]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

If you want to understand this brand of "militant" feelings, you should spend many hours studying the Medieval nature of Islam. I have no desire to understand "militant" feelings in Islam. I have a great desire to destroy terrorists. Any true progressive would have to agree.

As far as Israel goes, again, the United States and Israel have similar interests and have had so since before neo-conservatism existed. The "Israelis" have no more influence on American policy then you or t one of many special interest groups competing for attention. OI. They are jusf course, the Egyptian government gets billions of dollars from us---and of course we don't hear about undue Egyptian influence on American policy. In one sense, the radical left in this country, in it's one-sided demonization of Israel, is much akin to the repressive Arab regimes, that use Israelis and Jews (they don't differentiate) as a focus for their oppressed masses, who live in squalor and suffer great indignities. As they keep the masses focused on the Jews, the masses tend to forget about the butchers they live under. Then again, this was the same strategy used by Hitler in the 1930's.

That Islam is also militant says nothing about Israeli militancy. Any let us not try to say who started it.
The reason Egypt is quiet is that we buy them off; and Jordan also

"Israelis" have no more influence on American policy sounds like a Mulder post

[linskyjack]

Oh, well can you be a bit more specific in your condemenation of Israeli influnence in the US---Give me some specific examples. Is ithat Jews control the media thing or maybe banking etc, or perhaps Hollywood, or the medical professions etc???

Actually, the Israeli lobby, as I said before is like anyother lobbying group in this country. By the way, how did we get from Luger and Hagel showing some balls to Israel?