[d-rock79]

Rock solid, factual, unbiase reasons to NOT vote for George W.Bush

1. He has significant and meaningful ties to the oil industry on a personal level. His family has made millions of dollars from the sale of oil in the Past two decades and that interest compromises the faith of the Iraqi and American peoples in his choices while we fight a war in Iraq.

2. Currently 13,000 innocent Iraqi Civilians are dead at the hands of the U.S. Military. Our armed forces were commanded by George W. Bush to execute an attack on the Nation Of Iraq useing "smart bombs" which are capable of destroying football field sized lots in highly populated urban areas. Such an attack has now not only fanned the fires of Islamic extremists, but also caused average Iraqi citizens to take arms and fight for the safety of their loved ones.

3. 3 years after the most hainess, murderous act ever Committed on American Soil, the killer remains free and able to plan his next attack. The focus of our military has not been placed on his capture. Therefore Osama Bin Ladin has appeared successful in the minds of his fellow terrorists and continues to inspire his breed of hate.

4. He is a poor speaker. While many Americans may be able to relate to his Texas/Blue colour style of rhetoric, the rest of the world just sees a bad speaker, which does not help us gain allies in our so called "war on terror". Nor does it represent the Emphasis the United States places on Freedom of Speech and Education.

5. He has been given money and stature as a birthright. He has never had to deal with the same set of obstacles the average American endures and therefore is not capable of representing average American interests. His place on our ballot was purchased through money handed to him from Special interest groups.

6. He has never had to fight in a war, he has never had to sacrafice a loved one, yet he makes decisions which yield these unspeakable consequences to citizens of several Nations. He continues to pour more of our recources into the most costly endeavor our country has ever seen and has provided the American people with no factual evidence for its existence.

[angelize56]

Welcome to TSG d-r: There are plenty of Bush threads over in Civilized Debate this could have gone into...search before you post!

[Big-K]

I once saw someone compare the War On Terror to the War On Drugs, the main similarity being that both are unattainable goals, the main difference being that the War On Terror is an actual war using guns, tanks, soldiers, etc.

[deh]

Originally Posted by angelize56

Welcome to TSG d-r: There are plenty of Bush threads over in Civilized Debate this could have gone into...search before you post!

THREAD POLICE! or is that Security Guard?

[THoey]

Originally Posted by d-rock79

Rock solid, factual, unbiase reasons to NOT vote for George W.Bush

Soft, hardly factual, strongly biased...

1. He has significant and meaningful ties to the oil industry on a personal level. His family has made millions of dollars from the sale of oil in the Past two decades and that interest compromises the faith of the Iraqi and American peoples in his choices while we fight a war in Iraq.

Name a past President that didn't have money or ties to money. Who do we vote for that meets the standard of not tied to money? You? Me?

2. Currently 13,000 innocent Iraqi Civilians are dead at the hands of the U.S. Military. Our armed forces were commanded by George W. Bush to execute an attack on the Nation Of Iraq useing "smart bombs" which are capable of destroying football field sized lots in highly populated urban areas. Such an attack has now not only fanned the fires of Islamic extremists, but also caused average Iraqi citizens to take arms and fight for the safety of their loved ones.

Like to know how you know the numbered that has died since the Government and the news agencies don't...

3. 3 years after the most hainess, murderous act ever Committed on American Soil, the killer remains free and able to plan his next attack. The focus of our military has not been placed on his capture. Therefore Osama Bin Ladin has appeared successful in the minds of his fellow terrorists and continues to inspire his breed of hate.

I agree...

4. He is a poor speaker. While many Americans may be able to relate to his Texas/Blue colour style of rhetoric, the rest of the world just sees a bad speaker, which does not help us gain allies in our so called "war on terror". Nor does it represent the Emphasis the United States places on Freedom of Speech and Education.

I never knew the President was supposed to be more important to the people of other countries than to the people of his own country...

5. He has been given money and stature as a birthright. He has never had to deal with the same set of obstacles the average American endures and therefore is not capable of representing average American interests. His place on our ballot was purchased through money handed to him from Special interest groups.

See my response to your point #1 above...

6. He has never had to fight in a war, he has never had to sacrafice a loved one, yet he makes decisions which yield these unspeakable consequences to citizens of several Nations. He continues to pour more of our recources into the most costly endeavor our country has ever seen and has provided the American people with no factual evidence for its existence.

Name that last President that had fought in a war? Name a candidate that has fought that has been nominated by his/her party?

You should have probably started this in the CivDeb forum...

[deh]

Originally Posted by THoey

You should have probably started this in the CivDeb forum...

[eddie5659]

Moved to Civilized Debate

eddie

[deh]

Originally Posted by eddie5659

Moved to Civilized Debate

eddie

[angelize56]

deh: Dang it....get it right man!!

THREAD TALIBAN

[kleverkid]

Thank you THoey. It makes me ill to see so much misinformation being spread. It is 98% Gossip (2nd or 3rd hand -or further information) and about 2% true. How can we have real debates when people step up without verified facts. You can verify many of these facts on factcheck.org and if they weren't there or don't have the info, you can always check governmental and public information. It is readily available to those who REALLY want to know the truth. Sad fact is most people don't really want to know the truth.

[Big-K]

Originally Posted by THoey

I never knew the President was supposed to be more important to the people of other countries than to the people of his own country...

Name that last President that had fought in a war? Name a candidate that has fought that has been nominated by his/her party?

I usually stay outta here since noone cares about my opinion but I already responded to this so...

1. If the other countries think we have a competent leader, wont that help when we need their help?
2. The only ones I can think of at this moment that i'm positive of are Washington and Grant, both from before the 1900's, but i'm sure the others have. Your right though, presidents are given the title of Commander in Chief, which would make you think that they would help a bit in wars...obviously not.


then again i'm just a stupid teenager

[iltos]

good post, d-rock, and welcome to tsg.....i find it well reasoned...nowhere is it claimed that bush is the only politician to ever have these traits, or that it makes him necessarily a scum bag, but its important to realize that a lot americans and millions more around the world, including people of wealth and power, share these perceptions of the current american president

if you suscribe to the theory that maintaining super power status is a key to continued american progress, then its equally important to admit that the president, as leader of the free world, must have the respect of the world to lead, both in international affairs and domestically....d-rocks post points to serious questions about bush's ability to maintain that respect during the course of another term.......

[linskyjack]

From the Shurbs Second Cousin:



Jeanny House (Wisconsin): I'm voting for John Kerry because I'm a Christian. I know that my second cousin, George Bush, claims that he is the anointed leader of the American people and that God told him to run for office. I believe he may even believe that. I don't.

My Christian faith leads me to a concern for the poor and the marginalized, yet Bush's actions in office have repeatedly cut funding for health care, aid to failing schools, jobs programs, after school programs, Head Start, and many more services that provide real help and hope to those living in poverty. Under the Bush administration, over a million additional people have dropped below the poverty line. 1.2 million more have gone into "deep poverty," which is one-half the $18,810 for a family of four that defines "poverty."

My Christian faith leads me to a concern for the health and welfare of all of God's people, yet 45 million people in this country have no health insurance. The Bush administration, working hard to protect the interests of large, rich insurance companies, has done nothing to address the real health care crisis.

My Christian faith tells me the peacemakers are the blessed ones, yet George Bush wants to resurrect the Crusades, one of the most shameful experiences in Christian history. I fail to understand how lying to the people of the United States about any of the many justifications they have used for going to war in Iraq can be considered in any way, shape, or form a remotely Christian activity. Yes, Jesus once said, "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." He was talking about liberating his OWN people from within, not invading an oil-rich country out of purely selfish motives, then claiming it was for the liberation of others. The only true liberation comes when the oppressed claim it for themselves. This is something George Bush and his Imperialist cabal will never understand.

My Christian faith moves toward greater inclusiveness and acceptance, George Bush moves toward punishment, division, and exclusion. My Christian faith seeks to bring people into the circle of decision-making, George Bush seeks to keep them out. My Christian faith seeks to afford equal rights and responsibilities to all, George Bush seeks to reserve more rights for the privileged few.

My Christian faith is not looking for a new Messiah named George Bush.

I am, however, looking for a leader. I believe that leader's name is John Kerry.

[kleverkid]

linskyjack,

I'm a Christian as well and for the life of me, I can't understand how you can vote for a man who supports abortion (since when is the life of an unborn human negotiable?). He says he doesn't wear his faith on his sleeve... of what use is his faith if he doesn't make decisions based on it? He was one of a few who voted against the THIRD TRIMESTER ABORTION where fully developed human babies (who have proven to be capable of life on thier own!) are delivered until only the head is left inside the woman ("mother" I use the term loosely) and then the little skull is cracked and the brains are sucked out. How can you support a man who voted to KEEP this practice going and call yourself a "christian"?

I only put that question to you because you say you are a Christian. The rest of your points are very debatable but have little to do with the office of the presidency and more to do with congress.

Did it every occur to you to research facts and put responsiblity where it belongs? Or are you satisfied with second and third hand information (as long as it supports your prejudiced viewpoint)?

I'm all for intellectual debate of the issues (even theological issues) but it is hard to debate someone who has few (if any) known facts and has A LOT of emotion.

I already voted (via absentee ballot) for Bush, but NOT because he claims he is a Christian (who knows if he really is or not, we can only judge fruit --record--, God is the only one who can judge a heart), but because his record more closely (definitely not perfectly) follows the what God teaches in the bible.

Lastly, people have blamed President Bush for a lot of things, very few of which are his fault. For example: 1. Our health care situation (you speak of) has been in bad shape for a long time now (not just since Bush got to the white house) and socialized medicine has already proven to be inferior to private medicine (Russia, Canada...etc If you know people who live there, I do, here is the story.... yes it is better for sniffles and colds (like a great hmo) however, when you need the serious stuff you get on a waiting list and hopefully live until you get the procedure done....my best friends grandma died waiting for relatively easy heart stint procedure (done within a week or less with private medicine) For those who can't afford medical insurance, we already have medicade, but your income has to be truly poverty (which if someone has a serious problem and little assets, they will immediately qualify as soon as they have the procedure).

2. The whole notion of taxing the "rich" "the top 2%" more than the rest is absurd. If you check your facts, right now in America, the top 2% pay 96% of the taxes! that means 96% of all the "free stuff" for our fellow citizens is paid for by those people, and you want to take more of thier money. Should we take all of thier money and make them be slaves because they worked hard, got an education and prospered? President Regan proved that the "trickle down" economy works.

What ever happend to CHARITY?! I give 10% of every dime I make (before uncle sam takes 39% and the state takes 8%) to Charity. How much of your income on a CONSISTENT basis do you give? I found that most complainers about government handouts dont' give much themselves, they want OTHERs to be charitable, but not themselves.

Oh and by the way, I grew up dirt poor. Had no dad (well he wasn't around) and had a mom who left me with prostitutes when she wanted to go and party.... I put myself through college, have had great jobs, made great money and now own my own business. I had NO friends or friends of friends who gave me any help along the way and got ZERO from my parents. Yes I took some governement LOANS (that I am paying back still) what is the difference between me and any other disadvantaged poor person? I believe the American Dream is there for anyone who wants to work (and work hard) for it. People today have this rediculous messed up idea that the world owes them something. Life isn't fair, why did I have to be born to a mother who didn't want me and neglected me? Why was I born to poor parents? Why are my teeth crooked? It just is the way it is. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, God cursed the ground and cursed Adam and Eve and all thier decendents. Jesus will restore everything when He comes back, but until then, we have to 1. Love God with all our heart, mind, strength, soul and 2. Love our neighbor as we love ourselves. We are to take care of the needs WE SEE in OUR OWN nieghborhoods.. If everyone would take care of thier neighbor and pitch in if it was too much, we wouldn't NEED government help AND we could all be charitable and get more than we give.

Thank GOD my mother didn't abort me! I have lived a wonderful life, even when I was struggling through college, sleeping on the floor of a small apartment, with no furniture at all, and only enough money to eat sugar water for two weeks (at one point) I love life! Hard times show us what we are made of. If we are weak and lacking in Character, God says He will provide all we need if we only ask (wisdom).

Oh well, I could go on forever. I believe Senator Kerry is lacking in character and I think character matters.

[Wino]

Name that last President that had fought in a war?

George H.W. Bush

Name a candidate that has fought that has been nominated by his/her party?

Republican = Bob Dole
Democrat = John Kerry