[bassetman]

Originally Posted by alanmzifa

so it's all or nothing gibble ? i'm certainly not advocating doing nothing . the only way out of this conflict now is to win over the ordinary iraqi again but you won't do that by killing his family and neighbours . dicrimninate military action sending in crack troops not blowing a neighbourhood to kingdom come .

what about dealing with the terrorists using different tactics - there's no need to help recruit terrorists at a faster rate than they are being taken out of circulation - the maths doesn't add up .

if changes aren't made ( if it's not already too late ) soon iraq will turn into vietnam .

With Bush, everything black and white, you're either with us or you're with the terrorists!

France perhaps isn't a good example - they are extremely fair - they hate everybody equally !!

LOL

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by bassetman

Cut a little close to home Lan?

I'm sure you can fully relate to your Comrade.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by bassetman

With Bush, everything black and white, you're either with us or you're with the terrorists!



LOL

With Kerry, everything is gray, and there's nothing about which he is resolute or certain.

Which is worse? Both are bad, though, and upon that I think we can agree.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by alanmzifa

troops were welcomed into iraq , now young children dance on the burning remnants of allied vehicles - can you not see something has caused this change of attitude ?

Are you serious? After 9/11 I recall seeing thousands of people all over the middle east dancing in the streets. You are buying into the delusion that is a very very liberal European press and that is that somehow the US was well like in the middle east and is now suddenly evil. Get it through your head that freedom (yes freedom) was hated in the middle east before the Iraq war and it is still hated. Muslims, in order to maintain their repressive societies where women are treated like animals and religion dicates every government policy, they must defeat democracy. Every nation in the middle east that can be converted from a dictatorship to a democray, hell even a corrupt democracy is a step in the right direction.

[alanmzifa]

Originally Posted by alanmzifa

imagine some texans wanted to hurt america and start a campiagn of terror - small attacks here and there . the govt send in troops who kill a few terrorista but also take out many innocent uninvolved innocent texans . what started off as small begins to escalate as more texans get to feel that the rest of america is against all of them and sees all texans as terrorists . more and more texans join the terrorists and in fact some residents of neighbouring states ( who have lost relatives in texas ) also get drawn in to terror war .

this is what is happening in the middle east .

using the example above - would the average american say ' to hell with the texans , keep bombing until they give in ' or would the average american say ' this doesn't seem to be helping - in fact lots of innocents are getting caught up in this and that's making the problem escalate - there might be a better way to deal with this .'

america is most powerful country on earth so if anyone has it musthave an alternative plan to defeat the terrorists .
like i said above america wouldn't systematically tear appart and destroy major texan cities to eliminate a few hundred terrorists - use the special elite forces and don't piss all the good guys off that you rely on to keep you informed .

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

I'm sure you can fully relate to your Comrade.

I sure can Herr Lanmeister!

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by alex_holker

I think that people would have a difficult time blaming the US for people being in the palaces if you are telling them *a week in advance* where you are firing.

Alex

Don't kid yourself Alex. That is exactly what Hussein would do--line the place with innocent civilians and if the US attacked, we would be villified by people like zifa. That's the problem--there is no acceptable answer that doesn't involve the deaths of innocent people. But I can tell you for damn sure that doing nothing doesn't work because that's what we've done for years. Its time the world wakes up and realizes that innocent people are goind to die fighting this enemy, which is the greatest that free societies have faced--a much bigger threat then Hitler was. We can take the Zifa/Chamberlain/Clinton/Kerry way or we can take the Bush/Reagan/Churchill way. The latter is definitely the choice subject to the most amount of criticism. The former pacifist way doesn't "rock the boat"--its hard to criticize the 'status quo' because of course no one can ever know for sure that people died because of someone's "inaction". We can't say for sure that 9/11 would not have occurred if Clinton took Bin Laden when he had the chance. However, it easy to point to millions of deaths in WWII and say it could have been avoided if we brokered peace with Hitler (as Chamberlain wanted).

In the end, it is people of courage and conviction that make the tough choices. Years ago, they were honored for it--today they are villanized, which is very sad indeed. At some point, if the Zifa's have their way, we will live in a world where we are paralyzed--unable to take any action for fear of criticism and we will be forced into one appeasement after another after another.

[alanmzifa]

however you perceive america to be thought of prior to 9/11 can you not see that the current strategy in iraq is creating more terrorists .

i'll make it really simple for you mulder - do you want more terrorists , yes or no ?

and to correct you on a point , several thousand protestors danced in the streets after 9/11 but not all over the middle east as you state , only in palestine and tehran ( iran ) . whilst you may not agree with a small minority of arabs celebrating this atrocious act i beleive these people were exercising what you might call ' their right to free speech ' .

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by alanmzifa

america is most powerful country on earth so if anyone has it musthave an alternative plan to defeat the terrorists .
like i said above america wouldn't systematically tear appart and destroy major texan cities to eliminate a few hundred terrorists - use the special elite forces and don't piss all the good guys off that you rely on to keep you informed .

What are you talking about? That's exactly what we are doing. What we really should do is simply level Fallujah and kill thousands of terrorists. But we are sacrificing American lives by specifically targeting terrorists. Innocent people will die--always--get that through your head. There is no way to win this battle and not have innocent people die.

Have you thought of how many people are now alive because of the war? How many people would Hussein have killed or let starve to death? How many of the deck of 52 (we've now captured or killed the majority) would have killed innocent people that are now alive. All you can see through your distorted pacifist lens are innocent people that died, but you can't concede that there are also innoncent people who are now alive that wouldn't have been. And we can't ever know how many have been saved in the future--probably hundreds of thousands.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by alanmzifa

however you perceive america to be thought of prior to 9/11 can you not see that the current strategy in iraq is creating more terrorists .

i'll make it really simple for you mulder - do you want more terrorists , yes or no ?

and to correct you on a point , several thousand protestors danced in the streets after 9/11 but not all over the middle east as you state , only in palestine and tehran ( iran ) . whilst you may not agree with a small minority of arabs celebrating this atrocious act i beleive these people were exercising what you might call ' their right to free speech ' .

And its a small minority of Iraqis that are committing the atrocities and that aren't happy Hussein is gone. You don't see that because all you see is what you read in your liberal newspapers. The military over and over and over again tell completely different stories of what they see as compared to what is seen in the press.

And you have absolutely no evidence to support that the Iraq war has created more terrorists. To the contrary, it is my belief (and the belief of many) that what it has done is caused many to be attracted to that area where we can kill them easier. Your view is nonsense, plain and simple. Stop reading the newspaper and watching the BBC and consult some other sources for your information, otherwise you shall remain uninformed.

[alanmzifa]

Originally Posted by Mulder

Don't kid yourself Alex. That is exactly what Hussein would do--line the place with innocent civilians and if the US attacked, we would be villified by people like zifa. That's the problem--there is no acceptable answer that doesn't involve the deaths of innocent people. But I can tell you for damn sure that doing nothing doesn't work because that's what we've done for years. Its time the world wakes up and realizes that innocent people are goind to die fighting this enemy, which is the greatest that free societies have faced--a much bigger threat then Hitler was. We can take the Zifa/Chamberlain/Clinton/Kerry way or we can take the Bush/Reagan/Churchill way. The latter is definitely the choice subject to the most amount of criticism. The former pacifist way doesn't "rock the boat"--its hard to criticize the 'status quo' because of course no one can ever know for sure that people died because of someone's "inaction". We can't say for sure that 9/11 would not have occurred if Clinton took Bin Laden when he had the chance. However, it easy to point to millions of deaths in WWII and say it could have been avoided if we brokered peace with Hitler (as Chamberlain wanted).

In the end, it is people of courage and conviction that make the tough choices. Years ago, they were honored for it--today they are villanized, which is very sad indeed. At some point, if the Zifa's have their way, we will live in a world where we are paralyzed--unable to take any action for fear of criticism and we will be forced into one appeasement after another after another.

mulder , you still only see inappropriate action or no action as the only two alternatives . have you lived in a country ( prior to 9/11 ) that had to deal with terrorism - have you any experience of it . it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about - in fact you don't even seem to be reading my posts , making assumptions about what i'd think about this or that - why not ask me ?
instead you just seem capable of repeating your mantra over and over and over - i can see why think bush is a clever guy now .

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by bassetman

I sure can Herr Lanmeister!

LOL

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by alanmzifa

mulder , you still only see inappropriate action or no action as the only two alternatives . have you lived in a country ( prior to 9/11 ) that had to deal with terrorism - have you any experience of it . it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about - in fact you don't even seem to be reading my posts , making assumptions about what i'd think about this or that - why not ask me ?
instead you just seem capable of repeating your mantra over and over and over - i can see why think bush is a clever guy now .

Oh yes--you've done a wonderful job of fighting and dealing with terrorism in Europe!

[Gibble]

Originally Posted by alanmzifa

mulder , you still only see inappropriate action or no action as the only two alternatives . have you lived in a country ( prior to 9/11 ) that had to deal with terrorism - have you any experience of it . it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about - in fact you don't even seem to be reading my posts , making assumptions about what i'd think about this or that - why not ask me ?
instead you just seem capable of repeating your mantra over and over and over - i can see why think bush is a clever guy now .

Why not quit saying there are more alternatives and give them?

Your being quite hypocritical by insisting there are more options, options that won't cause any harm to civilians, and yet, don't tell us what they are, and critisize us for not asking? How ignorant must you be to argue in this fashion.

[Mulderator]

http://www.defendamerica.mil/article.../a070104b.html

An American View from Iraq

Civilian Employee Remains Positive, Extends Tour Another Six Months
FORT BELVOIR, Va., July 2, 2004 -- The following article is written by Bonnie Murphy, a Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service employee who volunteered to go to Iraq in December 2003. Prior to her work at Balad Air Base, Logistics Support Area Anaconda, Murphy worked for DRMS out of its headquarters in Battle Creek, Mich. DRMS is a field activity of the Defense Logistics Agency, headquartered at Fort Belvoir, Va. She recently decided to extend her tour in Iraq and is scheduled to return to Battle Creek in January. At the time she wrote and submitted this commentary, she was home on leave in Florida. Murphy was awarded the DLA Employee of the Second Quarter for the work she has performed in Iraq.

"I am a Department of Defense civilian and took leave to attend my daughter’s high school graduation. Being home has been wonderful and sad at the same time. I'm appalled at the "news" as it's reported from Iraq. And just as disturbing is the lack of knowledge a lot of people have about what's really going on, why we're there and what it's really like. I'd like to set the record straight.

My job as an environmentalist is primarily the protection of the environment and the disposal of Department of Defense-generated hazardous wastes. I volunteered to go to Iraq, and last December I was selected to set up the first disposal operations in the forward deployed area.

I have been stationed at Balad Air Base, LSA Anaconda since Dec. 28. On several occasions, my work has taken me to Baghdad. I extended my initial tour from 120 days to 155 days, and June 7 I went back to Baghdad for six more months.

Ninety-five percent of the Iraqi people want us there, and it's only a handful of insurgents with weapons who are attacking our bases, convoys and troops. The older generations say that although they may never see the freedoms we're trying to bring to their country, they know their children will enjoy the rights that we take for granted in this country.

I've had the opportunity to meet and speak with day laborers coming on Anaconda. They are grateful for the work and pay they receive. Men have taken my hand with tear-filled eyes and thanked me because they can now provide for their families -- something they couldn't do when Saddam was in power. I've met engineers, pilots and well-educated men who, for the first time since Saddam took office, are returning from self-imposed exile to their homeland and are able to find work on our many U.S. bases.

Before I left Balad, I was able to coordinate the donation of $3,500 of hospital disinfectant and dental amalgam to the local hospital from the DRMS inventory of excess property. Our Balad team of doctors and medics make regular scheduled visits to the surrounding communities to provide medical care and assistance to the people and teach new technologies to Iraqi medical personnel.

People are being taught field sanitation and hand-washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs. Four hundred thousand children have now received up-to-date immunizations. One hundred percent of the existing hospitals are now open and staffed, compared to 35 percent before the war. On behalf of my organization, the Defense Logistics Agency, and its partner, Army Materiel Command, we're sponsoring a local secondary school. We've received $65,500 of Saddam's money to completely rebuild the school. Our school is only one of 11 schools being sponsored by different units on LSA Anaconda. School attendance is up 80 percent, and for the first time girls are allowed to attend classes.

Our facility engineers and Seabees are rebuilding outdated sewer lines and constructing a new water treatment plant that will serve the entire area. This is being done in every major city. More than 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time.

We're updating and constructing new power plants throughout the country. Now the entire populace receives twice the electric power it did before the war. More than 400,000 people have telephone service for the first time.

The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from ships faster. Farmers are being educated on better methods, and new technologies are being introduced. Local contractors working on our bases are, for the first time, able to receive lubricant oils, and hydraulic and brake fluids for their equipment.

The newly formed Iraqi Civil Defense Force trains on LSA Anaconda. The teams work and learn side by side with our soldiers, and they are proud to be learning from us and eager to help in the battle against the handful of insurgents making life miserable in Iraq. Every day our troops are finding buried weapons and chemicals that must be disposed of. The dangerous chemicals pose a threat to the environment, health and safety of not only the Iraqi people but the world if they were to come into the wrong hands.

I've met some wonderful soldiers serving in Iraq. As a nation, we should all be proud and supportive of the mission, Operation Iraqi Freedom.

I believe in my job, my country, and I want my grandchildren to always be able to enjoy their freedoms. That's why I'm going back."

Bonnie Murphy, DRMS staff officer, Disposal Operations Iraq, Baghdad

If people were like this woman and not like you, Zifa, our chances of success would be magnified ten fold. What I know is that negativity and negative thinking and the repeating of negatives like you and the liberals do here serve no one but the terrorists--you play right into their hands and unwittingly, you support them.

The above view is what you hear from the military. Your view is what you hear on the BBS. You have no idea how much you are manipulated by your countries media. Like a sheep--you are led directly to the conclusions they want you to reach. Same as the liberals in this country.