[linskyjack]

For all you Fundi's out there---


The White House, Washington, D.C. 1804.

Thomas Jefferson was frustrated. It was not the burdens of office that bothered him. It was his Bible.

Jefferson was convinced that the authentic words of Jesus written in the New Testament had been contaminated. Early Christians, overly eager to make their religion appealing to the pagans, had obscured the words of Jesus with the philosophy of the ancient Greeks and the teachings of Plato. These "Platonists" had thoroughly muddled Jesus' original message. Jefferson assured his friend and rival, John Adams, that the authentic words of Jesus were still there. The task, as he put it, was one of

abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separate from that as the diamond from the dung hill.

With the confidence and optimistic energy characteristic of the Enlightenment, Jefferson proceeded to dig out the diamonds. Candles burning late at night, his quill pen scratching "too hastily" as he later admitted, Jefferson composed a short monograph titled The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth. The subtitle explains that the work is "extracted from the account of his life and the doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke & John." In it, Jefferson presented what he understood was the true message of Jesus.

Jefferson set aside his New Testament research, returning to it again in the summer of 1820. This time, he completed a more ambitious work, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels in Greek, Latin, French and English. The text of the New Testament appears in four parallel columns in four languages. Jefferson omitted the words that he thought were inauthentic and retained those he believed were original. The resulting work is commonly known as the "Jefferson Bible."

Who was the Jesus that Jefferson found? He was not the familiar figure of the New Testament. In Jefferson's Bible, there is no account of the beginning and the end of the Gospel story. There is no story of the annunciation, the virgin birth or the appearance of the angels to the shepherds. The resurrection is not even mentioned.

Jefferson discovered a Jesus who was a great Teacher of Common Sense. His message was the morality of absolute love and service. Its authenticity was not dependent upon the dogma of the Trinity or even the claim that Jesus was uniquely inspired by God. Jefferson saw Jesus as

a man, of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, (and an) enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions of divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted according to the Roman law.

In short, Mr. Jefferson's Jesus, modeled on the ideals of the Enlightenment thinkers of his day, bore a striking resemblance to Jefferson himself.

[rmay635703]

Good Post most good christians know...

The corruption of the bible was discussed in parallel ancient texts as a method of making it PC (in early AD terms) to fit what they wanted to say and to provide texts that put forth the agenda at the time.

Men wrote the bible so it isn't all strictly word of God, also the Bible is incomplete, there are well over 100 other texts (some say 1000) that could have been included but were not for whatever reason. Also some texts are missing big portions making them almost nonsensical in parts.

Jefferson was right, Seeing through all this would be a challenge and it all comes down to do what is right to your best knowlege

Nothing is in stone.

People always find only what they want to find in the bible, be it...
life, peace, war, death, hatred, stealing, forgiveness, payback, good will, they are all in there.

Thats why I don't think biblically motivated reasoning / justification works very well in government or in most other circles as it ONLY reflects what you believe is right,

What part of the bible do you want to use for justification?

PS. Good Posts rarely go answered.

[WarC]

Good post linsky, I liked it.

I think Jesus was a living person. He must have been to have the impact on the world he had. The divine part I'm not to sure on, but its interesting that Jefferson took such an analytical approach with 'ole JC. I've never heard of the Jefferson Bible. Are there any resources online that anyone knows of? (before I go off-a-googlin')

[linskyjack]

WARC--thank you--I'm not sure--I think it is worth looking into.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Good Post most good christians know...

The corruption of the bible was discussed in parallel ancient texts as a method of making it PC (in early AD terms) to fit what they wanted to say and to provide texts that put forth the agenda at the time.

Men wrote the bible so it isn't all strictly word of God, also the Bible is incomplete, there are well over 100 other texts (some say 1000) that could have been included but were not for whatever reason. Also some texts are missing big portions making them almost nonsensical in parts.

Jefferson was right, Seeing through all this would be a challenge and it all comes down to do what is right to your best knowlege

Nothing is in stone.

People always find only what they want to find in the bible, be it...
life, peace, war, death, hatred, stealing, forgiveness, payback, good will, they are all in there.

Thats why I don't think biblically motivated reasoning / justification works very well in government or in most other circles as it ONLY reflects what you believe is right,

What part of the bible do you want to use for justification?

PS. Good Posts rarely go answered.

Uhoh--I hear valley's footsteps!

[MSM Hobbes]

Interesting read, again... had forgotten about this subject.

However, good to read the thread and the posts so far.

WarC, here be some info and links:

http://www.korrnet.org/lcoc/news/00n0504.htm
THOMAS JEFFERSON, the third president of the United States and author of the Declaration of Independence, translated the New Testament into English from the Greek language. The Life And Morals of Jesus of Nazareth is usually referred to as The Jefferson Bible. While I respect Jefferson and his place in American history, his view of the Bible was unusual.

Jefferson was heavily influenced by Unitarian preachers. Their bias is shown on every page of his translation. Perhaps the word "translation" is far to generous. His labor might best be described as an abridged paraphrase of the sections of the four gospels that he agreed with. Jefferson had no respect for the writings of the apostle Paul, and only marginal regard for the four gospel writers.

Jefferson biographer Jaroslav Pelikan wrote: "Like other Enlightenment rationalists, Jefferson was convinced that the real villain in the Christian story was the apostle Paul, who had corrupted the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus, which thus had, in combination with the otherworldly outlook of the Fourth Gospel, produced the monstrosities of dogma, superstition, and priestcraft, which were the essence of Christian orthodoxy." (Jefferson And Contemporaries, pg. 5)

The Jefferson Bible was an attempt to harmonize the gospels. All references to the Deity of Christ are deleted. The virgin birth of Christ, His genealogy, miracles and claims of Divine Sonship are gone. One of the few things left are the parables.

According to Jefferson, when Jesus left, the man who had been blind since birth (John 9) the man was still blind, Malchus was left with his ear cut off and Lazarus was left rotting in the tomb.

In The Jefferson Bible, you will find no reference to Christ fulfilling prophesy, or the Spirit of the Lord being upon Him. Nor will you find the victory of Christ over the temptations which Satan placed in His way.

The Jefferson Bible abruptly ends with these words: "Now, in the place where he was crucified, there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus. And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed."

Paul tells us the consequences of a doctrine like that found in The Jefferson Bible: "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen then our preaching is vain and your faith is also vain. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up - if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still dead in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable": (I Cor 15:13-19).

http://patriot.net/~bmcgin/jeffersonbible.html
"THE JEFFERSON BIBLE TEACHES THE ETHICS OF JESUS
WITHOUT VIOLATING THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE."

Thomas Jefferson was the author of the phrase "wall of separation between church and state." He felt that the government had no business trying to control what people believed (as the government of England had tried to do.) And he felt there should never be any such thing as an "official church" of the country, as the Church Of England was in England.

Here is a link to Jefferson's letter which first mentions a "wall of separation" between church and state.

Jefferson also compiled a collection of Bible verses which is now known as "The Jefferson Bible." These verses contain the ethical teachings of Jesus without the religious content of either Judaism or Christianity. Jefferson considered these to be the pure teachings of Jesus, and he felt they were best ethical system ever developed.

Jefferson was able to distinguish clearly in his mind between the Ethics Of Jesus and the Religion Of Christianity. He accepted and embraced the Ethics Of Jesus, which includes the central ideas of The Golden Rule and love for all people. But he rejected the Religion Of Christianity, which includes the ideas of the virgin birth, the resurrection, baptism, the divinity of Christ, the indwelling of The Holy Spirit, and salvation through faith in Christ.

Thus, he believed that teaching the Ethics Of Jesus is not the same thing as promoting or "establishing" the Religion Of Christianity.

Therefore, Jefferson must have believed that teaching the Ethics Of Jesus does not violate the "wall of separation between church and state," which he himself erected.

Note: As a Christian minister, I accept both the Ethics Of Jesus and the Religion Of Christianity. But Jefferson accepted only the Ethics Of Jesus, which he considered to be very beneficial to the happiness and well-being of mankind. But he was opposed to Government promotion of Christianity or any other religion.

Here is your link to a free copy of The Jefferson Bible.

To see the copy at the Library Of Congress, please click HERE, then enter "Jefferson Bible" in the search box.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE GOLDEN RULE
("Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated.")
IS FOUND IN CHAPTER THREE, PARAGRAPH 47
OF THE JEFFERSON BIBLE
AS EXPRESSED BY JESUS, TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH.

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this
is the law and the prophets."

Here is what review at Amazon had to say, and IMHO, is quite succinct:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...40816?v=glance

Thomas Jefferson, one of our Founding Fathers, is clearly against the Christian church whose teachings are mainly based on those of Paul (Corinthians) which he calls the "Great Corruptor" of Jesus' teachings. I guess not all Founding Fathers are Christians (by the definition of what a Christian is, that is, one that studies all the supernatural stuff + Corinthians, etc.), eh?

Another great read is Thomas Payne's Age of Reason.

This is what the Founders want for religious freedom, not what the Christian Right wants which is to force the government into an instrument of their filth.

If you are a Christian, i strongly recommend reading this book. Jefferson examine the writings of Mark/Luke/etc and realized that the only thing that can be trusted, are when the three of them testify to the SAME effect (i.e. the resurrection section and immaculate birth are not taughted by Jesus himself, and they vary between the three accounts). He also points out the main issue: Jesus did not write his own teachings down, and unlike Plato, etc. much of the things we have today in the Bible are written years later, from HUMAN memory. He also points out the paganistic nature of Christianity, which derives from Judaism -- and in order to convert pagans to Christianity, it must have paganistic characteristics, such as supernatural events that Paul and others later added to the bible and thus, corrupted what Jesus taught.

...and, finally, if so desire to read the actual text [yes, all of it], then go:
http://patriot.net/~bmcgin/jeffbbl.txt

- or, w/ chapter headings/topics at: http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.

This presentation of The Jefferson Bible offers the text as selected and arranged by Jefferson in two separate editions: one edition uses a revised King James Version of the biblical texts, corrected in accordance with the findings of modern scholarship; the second edition uses the original unrevised KJV. The actual verses of the Bible used for both editions are those chosen by Jefferson. Visitors should find the revised KJV text much easier to read and understand. Those seeking the precise English version Mr. Jefferson used when making his compilation can click on "Unrevised KJV text."

Also, if interested, the material w/in linskyjack's original post can be found at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...jefferson.html

[MSM Hobbes]

Now, for one glimse at the man Jefferson, can read the following:

http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/article...jefferson.html
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) is known the world over as the principal author, in 1776 at age 33, of the Declaration of Independence; as author of the Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom instituting separation of church and state in Virginia, passed in 1786; and as third president of the United States, 1801-09. As president Jefferson commissioned the Lewis and Clark expedition, launched in 1803, to map the vast, unknown territory northwest of St. Louis; and he negotiated and persuaded Congress to fund the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, greatly increasing the size of the U.S. He also protected crucial trade interests of his young nation by making war with the Barbary States,1801-05.

Jefferson held many other public offices. He was a delegate to the House of Burgesses in colonial Virginia, 1769-76; Governor of Virginia during the War for Independence, 1779-81; for five years U.S. Minister to France, 1785-89, where he observed events leading to the French Revolution; the first Secretary of State under George Washington, 1790-93; and Vice President under John Adams, 1797-1801.

The range of Jefferson's genius—his interests, abilities and accomplishments—would be extraordinary in any age. He is famous for his garden, for the precise observations he made of his varied plants and for his inventions which included the dumb-waiter and a machine that duplicated handwriting. After his retirement from politics, he devoted much time and energy to founding the University of Virginia, opened to students in 1825. A capable architect, he designed his plantation home, Monticello, and the early buildings of the University of Virginia. Only one book of his authorship, Notes on Virginia, was published in his lifetime. Publication of his letters alone, however, not to mention his state papers, now fill many volumes. He was throughout his long life an avid student of many fields. Late in his life Congress purchased his library, at that time the largest in the country, making it the core collection of the new Library of Congress. Congress published posthumously, in 1904, his collation of extracts from the Gospels, now known as the "Jefferson Bible."

Jefferson's public life was not without turmoil, failure and scandal, nor was his private life without tragedy and trouble. His beloved wife died at a young age. Five of his six children died prematurely, four in infancy. In all his adult life he was never free from the burden of seriously threatening indebtedness.

The character of Jefferson's religion is one of the most interesting aspects of his intriguing life. Certain evangelicals, who were also his political opponents, tried very hard to make Jefferson's religion a factor in elections. They filled the press with scurrilous attacks on his "deistical" beliefs. He made it his steadfast policy never to respond to any of these attacks or, indeed, to make any public statement at all concerning his faith. Ironically, in spite of the attacks, evangelicals flocked to support Jefferson because they favored the end of tax support for established churches—which meant freedom for their independent churches—as passionately as did he. Today religious conservatives portray Jefferson as a sympathetic figure, unaware of his religious beliefs, his understanding of religious freedom or his criticisms of evangelical religiosity.

These facts about Jefferson's religion are known. He was raised as an Anglican and always maintained some affiliation with the Anglican Church. He was also known to contribute financially, in fair proportion, to every denomination in his town. While a student at William and Mary College, he began to read the Scottish moral philosophers and other authors who had made themselves students of church history. These scholars opened the door for Jefferson's informed criticism of prevailing religious institutions and beliefs. But it was the world renowned English Unitarian minister and scientist, Joseph Priestley, who had the most profound impact on his thought. According to Priestley's Corruptions of Christianity, published in 1782, and many other of his books, the teachings of Jesus and his human character were obscured and obfuscated in the early Christian centuries. As the Church Fathers adapted Christianity to Mediterranean-primarily Greek-forms of thought, they contrived doctrines altogether foreign to Biblical thought, such as the doctrine of the Trinity. Jefferson assumed that a thoroughly reformed Christian faith, true to Jesus' teaching, would be purged of all Greek influence and doctrinal absurdity.

Jefferson never joined a Unitarian church. He did attend Unitarian services while visiting with Joseph Priestley after his immigration to Pennsylvania and spoke highly of those services. He corresponded on religious matters with numerous Unitarians, among them Jared Sparks (Unitarian minister, historian and president of Harvard), Thomas Cooper, Benjamin Waterhouse and John Adams. He was perhaps most open concerning his own beliefs in his long exchange of letters with John Adams during their late years, 1812-26.

It is probably safe to say that Jefferson first acquired from Joseph Priestley features of his world view and faith which he found confirmed to his satisfaction by further thought and study for the rest of his life. These included a withering a scorn for Platonic and all forms of Neoplatonic metaphysics; a fierce loathing of all "priestcraft" whose practitioners he held guilty of deliberately perpetrating rank superstition for centuries, thus maintaining their own power; a serene conviction that Jesus' moral teaching was entirely compatible with natural law as it may be inferred from the sciences; and a unitarian view of Jesus. These features are all well attested in his voluminous private correspondence.

Jefferson's earliest writings on religion exhibit a natural theology, a heavy reliance on reason, and the belief that morality comes not from special revelation but from careful attention to the inward moral sense. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787, Jefferson advised, "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

He considered Jesus the teacher of a sublime and flawless ethic. Writing in 1803 to the Universalist physician Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote, "To the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other."

Jefferson found the Unitarian understanding of Jesus compatible with his own. In 1822 he predicted that "there is not a young man now living in the US who will not die an Unitarian." Jefferson requested that a Unitarian minister be dispatched to his area of Virginia. "Missionaries from Cambridge [that is: Harvard Divinity School] would soon be greeted with more welcome, than from the tritheistical school of Andover." Jefferson's christology is apparent in these and similar letters, and also in one of his most famous writings, the "Jefferson Bible."

Of immense appeal is the image of President Jefferson, up late at night in his study at the White House, using a razor to cut out large segments of the four Gospels and pasting the parts he decided to keep onto the pages of a blank book, purchased to receive them. This original project of 1804, which he titled "The Philosophy of Jesus," he refined and greatly expanded in his later years. The final product, completed in 1820, he called the "Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth," which was the version Congress published. Jefferson's "Life and Morals" argues no theology. It is simply his edited version of the Gospels. He literally cut out the virgin birth, miracle stories, claims to Jesus' divinity and the resurrection. Some scholars believe he first assembled his collage of Jesus' teachings for his own devotional use. A late reference to the "Indians" who could benefit from reading it, was likely directed at those public figures, often Christian ministers, who had viciously attacked his religious beliefs without in the least understanding them or—as Jefferson believed—Jesus.

Thomas Jefferson's genius is everywhere apparent in his thirst for and his comprehension of the best enlightened philosophy, history, science, political theory, agriculture and religion of his age. Tragically, he failed utterly to engage, in any substantively practical way whatsoever, the massive realities of American racial oppression and injustice. Jefferson's writings display deep reservations as well as moral anguish concerning Negro slavery; yet he never freed his own slaves. Much attention, in Jefferson's time and in ours, has focused on his alleged sexual relations with his mixed-race slave, Sally Hemings, the light skinned half-sister of his wife. There is now compelling DNA evidence that Jefferson was the father of at least one of Hemings' children. He did free two of Hemings' children in his will and Hemings was given her freedom shortly thereafter. But millions of African Americans have had to suffer many more decades of cruel economic slavery, even after legal slavery was ended in the 1860s, because of the common, absurd notion, which Thomas Jefferson shared and only mildly questioned, that the "dark" races were inferior to the "white." Moreover, Jefferson's presidential removal policies proved horribly destructive to Native Americans. They set the pattern for the Bill for Indian Removal, signed by President Jackson in 1830, whose cruel enforcement resulted in the Trail of Tears of 1838-39 and other atrocities. Jefferson's prophetic advancement of human liberty is deeply tainted by his shameful legacy in matters of race. [ ]

...snip...

[linskyjack]

Jefferson's interpretation of scripture is the interpretation of a modern man of wide learning and intellectual curiosity. He was a man who used the greatest gift of the creator---free thought---to explore the world and analyze and dispense with handed down dogma. His interpretation is as legitimate Valley's

[MSM Hobbes]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Jefferson's interpretation of scripture is the interpretation of a modern man of wide learning and intellectual curiosity. He was a man who used the greatest gift of the creator---free thought---to explore the world and analyze and dispense with handed down dogma. His interpretation is as legitimate Valley's

Amen!

[mach9]

Nice.Thanks, linskyjack.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

For all you Fundi's out there---


The White House, Washington, D.C. 1804.

Thomas Jefferson was frustrated. It was not the burdens of office that bothered him. It was his Bible.

Jefferson was convinced that the authentic words of Jesus written in the New Testament had been contaminated. Early Christians, overly eager to make their religion appealing to the pagans, had obscured the words of Jesus with the philosophy of the ancient Greeks and the teachings of Plato. These "Platonists" had thoroughly muddled Jesus' original message. Jefferson assured his friend and rival, John Adams, that the authentic words of Jesus were still there. The task, as he put it, was one of

abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separate from that as the diamond from the dung hill.

With the confidence and optimistic energy characteristic of the Enlightenment, Jefferson proceeded to dig out the diamonds. Candles burning late at night, his quill pen scratching "too hastily" as he later admitted, Jefferson composed a short monograph titled The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth. The subtitle explains that the work is "extracted from the account of his life and the doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke & John." In it, Jefferson presented what he understood was the true message of Jesus.

Jefferson set aside his New Testament research, returning to it again in the summer of 1820. This time, he completed a more ambitious work, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels in Greek, Latin, French and English. The text of the New Testament appears in four parallel columns in four languages. Jefferson omitted the words that he thought were inauthentic and retained those he believed were original. The resulting work is commonly known as the "Jefferson Bible."

Who was the Jesus that Jefferson found? He was not the familiar figure of the New Testament. In Jefferson's Bible, there is no account of the beginning and the end of the Gospel story. There is no story of the annunciation, the virgin birth or the appearance of the angels to the shepherds. The resurrection is not even mentioned.

Jefferson discovered a Jesus who was a great Teacher of Common Sense. His message was the morality of absolute love and service. Its authenticity was not dependent upon the dogma of the Trinity or even the claim that Jesus was uniquely inspired by God. Jefferson saw Jesus as

a man, of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, (and an) enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions of divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted according to the Roman law.

In short, Mr. Jefferson's Jesus, modeled on the ideals of the Enlightenment thinkers of his day, bore a striking resemblance to Jefferson himself.

Good thread, but I'm sure the LN's of the world will pay no note!

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by Mulder

Uhoh--I hear valley's footsteps!

Oh yeah, she's not far behind!

[Clownfoot]

Mr. Jefferson was a remarkable person. Thanks for all the interesting links and commentary. I've been slowly but inexorably led to the conclusion that religion is one of man's most dangerous natural enemies, yet spiritual yearnings and curiosity seem to be engrained in our very DNA. I even feel it in my own 'spirit'.

I'm quite outraged at the hijacking of American politics and government carried out by what are essentially crazed mobs with torches and pitchforks, goaded on by demagogue warlocks and warmongers. Trouble is, the 'mobs' are well-dressed latte drinkers having no idea whatever that they have been so recruited. Yeah, not too much ambiguity as to where I stand, eh? BTW, I fully 'support our troops', and am a Viet Nam era veteran myself, but they are being cruelly misused. Sorry if this seems a little off-thread, but the method of the moment is to wrap oneself in the American flag and an aura of religion to try to lend respectability to what has been a terrible mistake. The second Iraq invasion was as wrong for America as Afghanistan was right. Iraq is Viet Nam II. The longer we let it fester, the more it is going to hurt us. Doesn't even matter who is 'right and wrong' here. This is going to be a major loser for everyone. Better to cut our losses now than later.

I'm a new member and first time poster here, BTW- a refugee from another forum which couldn't handle the rugby-like atmosphere of 'polite' political discussions, and so did away with them. The regulars here seem to be sharply divided politically, as they are everywhere else, yet folks seem reasonably civil and well-behaved. Perhaps I can 'blend in'. I find other things a lot more interesting than politics, yet I find myself in an era where what's happening politically is more vital and compelling than ever. This old republic is tattered and wobbly, with a lot of 'evil doers' relentlessly whacking away at the Constitution, seemingly determined to bring us to our knees and usher in a new old age of dogmatic inquisition (see "mobs with pitchforks", above). It won't be my problem personally for too much longer, but it greatly saddens me to see where America, the once-great, is now headed for our children. Can this great train wreck be headed off?

I don't intend to be drawn into any long-winded debates as to whether or not America was founded as a 'religious' nation. Personally, I take the view that it was not, and I only wish that the founders, wise though they were, had written measures into the Constitution to protect the government against the depredations of religion. Religion has been well-protected against attacks by the government all along, but not the converse. Church-state separation is one of the most vital principles which must be preserved, if America is to survive in any livable manner. The world has had, and will continue to have, different religions to accomodate the significant cultural and racial differences among its peoples. Nothing wrong with that. There is great strength in diversity (of all types), it does not threaten us. So why then do christianity and islam now both menace us, why have they both been so thoroughly hijacked? There is no one 'right' religion for the masses. Their esteemed founders would no doubt both disown most of what is done in their names today.

I don't see any easy answers, as everyone seems focused on our sharply defined differences, and few have anything much to say about our many commonly shared values. I for one feel quite threatened by the current US takeover, across the board, by 'fundies'. Where they want to take us is alien to what I believe in. How did they, as a group, come to feel so endangered that they felt they needed to resort to such heavy-handed, controlling tactics? Can't they see that this all will ultimately play out in a sort of grand backlash, fulfilling 'scriptural references' to coming persecutions of 'believers' (christians)? There is a pop psychology term for this sort of behavior: Being paranoid, they have *projected* that outwards onto the world. Because they have evil in their hearts, they see evil in the world. The world is actually quite neutral. The universe can be seen as a sort of giant wish-fulfillment machine. What they want, ultimately they will get. And they will drag their brothers down with them.

Is there anything we can do as a people to get these folks calmed down? Get them to lower the gun they have pointed at the head of Lady Liberty? Get them to let go of their death grip on her neck, to stop using her as a 'human shield'? Get them to see that we can get them on meds and calmed down and into some constructive therapy? That nobody has to actually die if they will just listen to reason and put down their gun? No, please don't jump! Ah well, it was just an idea. Somebody call 911...

[WarC]

Thanks MSM Hobbes, I appreciate the time you took to post those links. I'll have some good reading

Clownfoot, you'll have no trouble blending in here, I think! I of the outnumbered right-hand moderates. Welcome and congratulations on finding "the place". Consider your needs for intellectual thought and computer troubleshooting met! No better than TSG

While I would agree that organized religion has proven dangerous at times in history, I think the current state of affairs we find ourselves in is equally if not more attributable to the other crazy monotheistic religion. Don't forget those crazy mobs...at least our crazy mob hasn't!

Only few use religion on our side of the conflict, and those who do use it as an umbrella or comfort, just as you described it. Because how else? When we are targetted by extremists bending another religion. Thats how people of religion will seek comfort, explanation, strength. That isn't America's failure, thats history. Theres plenty of logic behind it all. At times violent logic, tough logic, because thats what war is. Thats the enemy we face. How do you defeat something that spindles around the globe, has cells everywhere, is willing to take your own civilian planes and smash them into your government buildings! Why, you give them reason to go back to the "holy land" they came from. What better than the Taliban and then the Baathist regime in Iraq. Two places yearning to breath free. How many planes have fallen on America since 9/11? Afghanistan and now Iraq became the Great American Shooting Gallery, except these Americans weren't in business suits, and they can shoot back.

It's early so I really did that gradeschool style. I could elaborate on that or other things a little later.

[MSM Hobbes]

Clownfoot - welcome to the TSG forum, as WarC indicated, there t'aint no better! Seriously, very good post - esp. IMHO the latter part of your first paragraph, and the first part of the 2nd paragraph. If interested in the blathering that many of us have had regarding various religions, check out the threads devoted to Islam.

WarC - you're welcome!

Again, I believe TJ to be a VERY amazing and remarkable man. Just frustrated and little mad that the Native Americans suffered such at the hands of the leaders of our nation at that time. True, different circumstances/understanding/time, but, still...