[Ciberblade]

Fortunately it is a small group...I'd hate to think this is what has become of the Democratic Party.

By ALAN FRAM, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - A small group of Democrats agreed Thursday to force House and Senate debates on Election Day problems in Ohio before letting Congress certify President Bush win over Sen. John Kerry in November.


While Bush's victory is not in jeopardy, the Democratic challenge will force Congress to interrupt tallying the Electoral College vote, which had been scheduled to begin at 1 p.m. EST Thursday. It would be only the second time since 1877 that the House and Senate were forced into separate meetings to consider electoral votes.

Sen. Barbara Boxer (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., signed a challenge mounted by House Democrats to Ohio's 20 electoral votes, which put Bush over the top. By law, a protest signed by members of the House and Senate requires both chambers to meet separately for up to two hours to consider it. Lawmakers are allowed to speak for no more than five minutes each.

"I have concluded that objecting to the electoral votes from Ohio is the only immediate way to bring these issues to light by allowing you to have a two-hour debate to let the American people know the facts surrounding Ohio's election," Boxer wrote in a letter to Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones (news, bio, voting record), D-Ohio, a leader of the Democratic effort.

The action seems certain to leave Bush's victory intact because both Republican-controlled chambers would have to uphold the objection for Ohio's votes to be invalidated. But supporters of the drive hope their move will shine a national spotlight on the Ohio voting problems.

Underscoring that the outcome was not in doubt, Kerry, who conceded to Bush the day after the Nov. 2 election, said he would not join the challenge. The four-term Massachusetts senator was in the Middle East, thanking U.S. troops for their service.

In a statement, Kerry said there are "very troubling questions" about the Ohio voting and he would present a plan later to improve voting procedures.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan dismissed the move as politically driven.

"I think the American people expect members of Congress to work together and move forward on the real priorities facing this country, instead of engaging in conspiracy theories and rehashing issues that were settled long ago," McClellan said.

Many Democrats oppose challenging the Ohio vote, concerned that it would do little but antagonize voters who consider the election over. The numbers are also politically daunting: Bush won an Ohio recount by more than 118,000 votes, and won nationally by more than 3 million.

Bush defeated Kerry by 286 to 252 electoral votes, with 270 needed for victory.

On Wednesday, Rep. John Conyers (news, bio, voting record) of Michigan, top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee (news - web sites), issued a report claiming "numerous, serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential election."

The report, mirroring complaints from Ohio voters, cites machine shortages and extremely long lines in minority and Democratic precincts. It alleges intimidation of voters, a purging of registration lists and other irregularities.

Many problems stemmed from "intentional misconduct and illegal behavior" by Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, the co-chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign in the state, the report argues.

Blackwell spokesman Carlo LoParo called the report "ludicrous" and a waste of taxpayer dollars.

In January 2001, a group of House Democrats protested the 2000 election because of Florida's ballot problems. But with the country weary of that contest's six weeks of recounts and turmoil, no senator joined in and the challenge failed. In political theater at its most ironic, Vice President Al Gore (news - web sites) — the defeated Democratic presidential contender — presided over the session, rejecting a challenge aimed at making him president.

The last time the two chambers were forced to interrupt their joint session and meet separately was in January 1969, when a "faithless" North Carolina elector designated for Richard Nixon voted instead for independent George Wallace. Both chambers agreed to allow the vote for Wallace.

The previous challenge requiring separate House and Senate meetings was in 1877 during the disputed contest that Rutherford Hayes eventually won over Samuel Tilden.

There were long lines in districts all over the country -- duh, it was one of the most charged elections in history. I do not live in a 'minority' district, yet I had long lines -- what does any of that have to do with the voting? And intimidation? Another claim that is based on a persons interpretation (cannot be proven).

Now purging of registration lists is cause for concern, and has a paper trail, so people can check to see if the purge was valid (like removing ineligible voters and the dead(who cannot vote))

It is similar to the unsubstantiated claims of the 2000 election, it causes the voters...ahem, rational voters, to become sick of the process -- resulting in more people with a lack of desire to participate -- perhaps that is the goal. Apparently just the accusation is enough to be considered as truth to some people.

[linskyjack]

Not nuts---they are merely making sure that the electoral process is fixed. Not a bad idea to get the issues in Ohio on the Congressional Record.

[bassetman]

This pretty much says it.

The report, mirroring complaints from Ohio voters, cites machine shortages and extremely long lines in minority and Democratic precincts. It alleges intimidation of voters, a purging of registration lists and other irregularities.

[rawmeat]

Obviously, tolerance is only for "right-thinking liberal elitists". Get over the 2000 election, get over the 2004 election. Get over your self righteous BS. If you think America is always wrong and the bad guy, get out. Don't let the door hit you on the way!

Have fun in wonderful Cuba!

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by rawmeat

Obviously, tolerance is only for "right-thinking liberal elitists". Get over the 2000 election, get over the 2004 election. Get over your self righteous BS. If you think America is always wrong and the bad guy, get out. Don't let the door hit you on the way!

Have fun in wonderful Cuba!

News Break! This country belongs to all citizens, not just the party that happened to win the last election!

[izme]

Originally Posted by rawmeat

Obviously, tolerance is only for "right-thinking liberal elitists". Get over the 2000 election, get over the 2004 election. Get over your self righteous BS. If you think America is always wrong and the bad guy, get out. Don't let the door hit you on the way!

Have fun in wonderful Cuba!

America is not always wrong, but it is our duty to stand a fight for what's right. not flee to some other Country which would play right into the hands of those doing wrong. Bassetman where is that Teddy Roosevelt quote, I can't find it, the one about the most patriotic thing to do is speak out against our President if he is doing wrong. This type of logic above is no logic at all, many chose to not be quiet drones

[iltos]

Originally Posted by izme

America is not always wrong, but it is our duty to stand a fight for what's right. not flee to some other Country which would play right into the hands of those doing wrong. Bassetman where is that Teddy Roosevelt quote, I can't find it, the one about the most patriotic thing to do is speak out against our President if he is doing wrong. This type of logic above is no logic at all, many chose to not be quiet drones

every time i click on this thread i think of "mixed"

[izme]

Originally Posted by iltos

every time i click on this thread i think of "mixed"

it's the McCaurthy witch hunts all over again

How dare you speak out, especially during war time, any negative words will be taken as commie rhetoric, and you must get on a small make shift boat and paddle to Cuba you Anti-American

[linskyjack]

Whats the big deal------you point out the problems in a system and you fix them!

[MSM Hobbes]

izme, post #6 above... Just because someone debates and/or is a critic of something, does not mean that they desire to throw the baby out w/ the bath water. Would you rather be ignorant and a pacifist when there is something potentially wrong that by working together upon can be fixed? True, much of this crap can be considered run-of-the-mill back-door political BS, but nevertheless, it still helps in the long run to bring the subject to the forefront so it can then be discussed, critiqued, and then hopefully improved. Its not a matter of just sitting around and pissing on the country and/or its leaders [down now! ], to me its being informed and then at the least trying to improve this great nation. Sitting on our arses or putting heads in sand does not give us a good path to correct potential flaws. Our country, while full of great promises and peoples, is NOT perfect. And if we don't continue the process of self-monitoring and then correcting through constructive developments, we are done as a society and a nation of any worth. Heck, I don't always agree w/ some of the blathering in the media or from people, but nevertheless, it gives a different perspective at times that can at the least help to improve/correct situations.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by MSM Hobbes

izme, post #6 above... Just because someone debates and/or is a critic of something, does not mean that they desire to throw the baby out w/ the bath water. Would you rather be ignorant and a pacifist when there is something potentially wrong that by working together upon can be fixed? True, much of this crap can be considered run-of-the-mill back-door political BS, but nevertheless, it still helps in the long run to bring the subject to the forefront so it can then be discussed, critiqued, and then hopefully improved. Its not a matter of just sitting around and pissing on the country and/or its leaders [down now! ], to me its being informed and then at the least trying to improve this great nation. Sitting on our arses or putting heads in sand does not give us a good path to correct potential flaws. Our country, while full of great promises and peoples, is NOT perfect. And if we don't continue the process of self-monitoring and then correcting through constructive developments, we are done as a society and a nation of any worth. Heck, I don't always agree w/ some of the blathering in the media or from people, but nevertheless, it gives a different perspective at times that can at the least help to improve/correct situations.

I wonder why some here claim some of us think "we" are always think "we" are wrong, and then refuse to consider that there are any problems that need fixing!

it's the McCaurthy witch hunts all over again

Yup!

[izme]

Originally Posted by MSM Hobbes

izme... Just because someone debates and/or is a critic of something, does not mean that they desire to throw the baby out w/ the bath water. Would you rather be ignorant and a pacifist when there is something potentially wrong that by working together upon can be fixed? True, much of this crap can be considered run-of-the-mill back-door political BS, but nevertheless, it still helps in the long run to bring the subject to the forefront so it can then be discussed, critiqued, and then hopefully improved. Its not a matter of just sitting around and pissing on the country and/or its leaders [down now! ], to me its being informed and then at the least trying to improve this great nation. Sitting on our arses or putting heads in sand does not give us a good path to correct potential flaws. Our country, while full of great promises and peoples, is NOT perfect. And if we don't continue the process of self-monitoring and then correcting through constructive developments, we are done as a society and a nation of any worth. Heck, I don't always agree w/ some of the blathering in the media or from people, but nevertheless, it gives a different perspective at times that can at the least help to improve/correct situations.

We fought for Independance from the Brit's and we acheived freedom, some of us will excercise that to it's full extent, to speak out against any wrong of our Government is just and the American way, the lovers of this Country and what it stands for, know's what it should be and isn't at this time and will speak out any chance they can get, not for themsleves but for the whole of America, people that just accept things as they are are the least patriotic to many. So the ones that attack he who speaks out against the wrongs are failing to realize many things about how we got here and what our rights are and what our Government can and cannot do. We are the rulers of our own Government not the other way around hence for the people by the people

[Ciberblade]

Originally Posted by bassetman

This pretty much says it.

The report, mirroring complaints from Ohio voters, cites machine shortages and extremely long lines in minority and Democratic precincts. It alleges intimidation of voters, a purging of registration lists and other irregularities.

The problem is with the one sided look at the issue.

The claim of machine shortages and long lines in minority and Democratic precincts is purposefully shading the information specifically for political allegation.

And here is why:
The turnout was unexpectedly high, so there were machine shortages and long lines in all precincts -- regardless of demographic. That is what tells me that all this adds up to is a school yard fight because the 'other' team won. It is a claim that cannot be proven, which is why I say that apparently the accusation is enough. This is the stuff that conspiracy theory's are made out of...you present information that cannot be independently verified in an attractive way -- before you know it, you have followers that believe and the facts do not matter.

This may make the group 'feel' better, but I believe will have negative results within the voting community, and damage the party as a whole

[linskyjack]

Unexpectadly high--from every indication from about September on, it was felt that there would be a huge turnout by both parties! So if thats what tells you this is a partisian issue then you are definately mistaken.

[Ciberblade]

Just over a month is not enough preparation time for additional units -- there was also little indication as to what areas were expected to turn out more than others, the polls used also changed dramatically to the point that three weeks before the election CNN reported a possible low turn out due to all the negative campaign's.

I had to wait in a long line...so what? I still voted, and so did these people. Voting places stayed open until all the lines were empty, some reported staying open more than 2hrs later. I guess I am mistaken simply because you say I am, after all, you are you, and who knows better than you right?