[xico]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Ratzinger only wanted the investigations to remain confidential within the Church.
That is far different, IMO, than transferring suspected molesters to different parishes, as Cardinal Law did.
It wouldn't matter which Cardinal was selected Pope. Your goal would be to trash his charachter, no matter what.
I think that is disgusting.

That article from the writer who wants the Catholic Church to change and accept Gay marriage and woman priests proves that liberals want nothing short of the destruction of the institution of Catholicism as we know it all together.

Disgusting.

Lan, your argument sounds pre-pubic! You enjoy feeling disgusted? The only reason for secrecy is dishonesty. Rat approved what Law was doing. In fact, Law couldn't have been doing what he was doing without the approval of the Holy See and the approval of Rat. The hierarchy knew what was going on, but they chose to cover it up, knowing they were violating the victims rights and the law. Why? because they wanted to protect Church property, ie., money, and they wanted to continue to appear blameless, good holy men, beyond the temptations of the flesh.

Lan, you're a nice guy, but you have to admit you're even more gullible than I am. First, The Church, the Roman Church, is a feudal, medieval institution. At one time the clergy and the Pope had more power than the aristocracy.
Gradually the aristocracy was able to edge out the power of the Church, ie., Martin Luther in Germany, and then Henry VIII in England. You have to realize that the Papacy, claiming divine authority, saw itself as above secular authority. The Pope crowned kings. Remember that.

The French Revolution annihilated the power of the aristocracy. Naapoleon jumped around Europe deposing Kings to install the newly risen bourgeoise, and the beginning of manufacturing. Napoleon put the crown on his own head, indicating the Pope no longer had the authority as king maker, a slap in the faith and a rejection of the papacy. Since then, and since the American Revolution, we have been blessed with the end of religious wars . . .until now, until GWB begins the anti-Muslim Crusade in Iraq and Afghanastan, and enlisting the aid of the Rat to tell Roman Catholics not to vote for any politician who supports abortion or gays.

You say the Church is charitable? Get real. The Church has supported oppression all over the world. They made a pact with the devil for earthly power. They stand for the status quo. They'll sing you the song, "You'll get your pie in the sky when you die!" and if you ask why, they'll sing you another, called, "Don't rock the boat!" The Church had the Fobbiden List of Books for centuries. They finally dropped it when they realized that that was the list everyone used to find out what to read, anyone who was really interested in thinking for themselves, that is. We have a right to knowledge. We have a right to know. Do you believe in censorship? Do you think that someone else has the right to tell you what you can read or see or think?
Lan, these guys are no more progressive than the Muslims. I believe that what you do is between you and God, not between you and the Pope or a priest or a preacher. Don't you believe in individual responsibility? The Pope certainly does believe that you have a right to individual responsibility, and he thinks he has that authority from God. What do you think?

[Clownfoot]

Regretfully, the catholic church is today more a part of the problem than the solution. Above all, the church is, and must be, dedicated to the survival of its clergy at all costs- and those costs can be very high indeed, as we see when news of the ugliness of (effectively) institutionalized pedophilia leaks out. This is so sad. I have known so many wonderful and impressive people over the years who are a product of the excellent catholic educational system. And many catholics excel greatly in life as a direct result of that education.

American catholics are well ahead of the curve in a number of areas, family planning being one of them. I learned recently that even the Italians are quietly beginning to resist the broken values of the Vatican by wisely limiting the size of their families. This greatly perturbs the clergy, which has recognized for almost a century now that changes in world society, the ecology, and the human condition overall, threaten their institutional power and influence. American catholics have quietly ignored the Vatican's teachings about birth control for some time now. They were rightly outraged when news of the outrageous misbehavior of a small minority of their priests leaked out. It soon became apparent, however, that the Americans and the Europeans were effectively playing a variant of 'mean cop/nice cop' regarding the issue. The Americans made meaningful efforts to reform the church and their European cousins quietly undid everything behind the scenes. Sincere efforts to reform were undermined. The net result? No real change. I was not at all surprised.

Once you grasp the central dynamic in this institutional drama, namely the fight for the survival of the church in the face of slowly dwindling numbers, the church's stubborn insistence on no birth control makes a lot more sense, even though it is quite a drain on the earth's resources. Promoting larger catholic families makes it more likely that sufficient numbers will stay in the denomination, thus arresting the negative growth. As for the new pope, perhaps the nickname of "Rat" is appropriate, since he apparently has indeed influenced the US 2004 election. From what I know of him so far, it makes sense that he was the head of 'enforcement', effectively an intellectual inheritor of the 'delightful' antics of the church during the Spanish inquisition and so forth.

Here is one church that definitely is meddling outrageously in politics, and in fact has for quite some time. It really does not deserve its tax exempt status, as it has become quite a politically influential institution in American society, and is clearly aligned with those who want to tear down the firewall of church-state separtion set up by the founding fathers of the US. They are not alone. It looks like a goodly number of protestant christian churches in the US are doing precisely the same thing, and it is an inside job now, as the federal government today is crawling with folks working earnestly to accomplish just that. And so they may. That would be a truly ugly outcome, as it would set us back centuries and recreate the very religious abuses that led many to flee Europe and settle in the US. Having once accomplished that, those folks would probably still expect their tax exempt status.

[xico]

Originally Posted by Clownfoot

Regretfully, the catholic church is today more a part of the problem than the solution. Above all, the church is, and must be, dedicated to the survival of its clergy at all costs- and those costs can be very high indeed, as we see when news of the ugliness of (effectively) institutionalized pedophilia leaks out. This is so sad. I have known so many wonderful and impressive people over the years who are a product of the excellent catholic educational system. And many catholics excel greatly in life as a direct result of that education.

American catholics are well ahead of the curve in a number of areas, family planning being one of them. I learned recently that even the Italians are quietly beginning to resist the broken values of the Vatican by wisely limiting the size of their families. This greatly perturbs the clergy, which has recognized for almost a century now that changes in world society, the ecology, and the human condition overall, threaten their institutional power and influence. American catholics have quietly ignored the Vatican's teachings about birth control for some time now. They were rightly outraged when news of the outrageous misbehavior of a small minority of their priests leaked out. It soon became apparent, however, that the Americans and the Europeans were effectively playing a variant of 'mean cop/nice cop' regarding the issue. The Americans made meaningful efforts to reform the church and their European cousins quietly undid everything behind the scenes. Sincere efforts to reform were undermined. The net result? No real change. I was not at all surprised.

Once you grasp the central dynamic in this institutional drama, namely the fight for the survival of the church in the face of slowly dwindling numbers, the church's stubborn insistence on no birth control makes a lot more sense, even though it is quite a drain on the earth's resources. Promoting larger catholic families makes it more likely that sufficient numbers will stay in the denomination, thus arresting the negative growth. As for the new pope, perhaps the nickname of "Rat" is appropriate, since he apparently has indeed influenced the US 2004 election. From what I know of him so far, it makes sense that he was the head of 'enforcement', effectively an intellectual inheritor of the 'delightful' antics of the church during the Spanish inquisition and so forth.

Here is one church that definitely is meddling outrageously in politics, and in fact has for quite some time. It really does not deserve its tax exempt status, as it has become quite a politically influential institution in American society, and is clearly aligned with those who want to tear down the firewall of church-state separtion set up by the founding fathers of the US. They are not alone. It looks like a goodly number of protestant christian churches in the US are doing precisely the same thing, and it is an inside job now, as the federal government today is crawling with folks working earnestly to accomplish just that. And so they may. That would be a truly ugly outcome, as it would set us back centuries and recreate the very religious abuses that led many to flee Europe and settle in the US. Having once accomplished that, those folks would probably still expect their tax exempt status.

Nice post, Clownfoot! I agree, let the churches pay their fair share of the taxes.

[angelize56]

Jul 6, 8:15 AM EDT

Footage From Ex-Priest's Slaying on Net

BOSTON (AP) -- A prison security video showing guards struggling to enter a cell where a convicted killer was strangling a defrocked pedophile priest has turned up on the Internet.

State prison officials were investigating how the 10-minute video, shot from outside former Roman Catholic priest John Geoghan's cell during his slaying, made it onto YouTube.

The video was posted last month and may have been brought to the Boston Herald's attention by Joseph Druce, who was convicted in January of killing Geoghan at the Souza-Baranowski maximum security prison in August 2003.

"The truth about officer involvement in John Geogan's (sic) death," a handwritten note sent to the Herald and signed "Joseph Lee Druce" says.

The note gives a link to the video and the message "The truth about officers allowing J.G. to die through their neglect. Let the truth be know (sic)."

The video shows up to five guards at a time tugging at the door Druce had wedged shut with a book, while other guards stand ready to enter the cell.

About halfway through it, guards pry the door open, and several rush into the cell before emerging seconds later dragging someone out, presumably Druce, and pinning him to the floor. What appears to be medical personnel then rush into the cell. Viewers can neither see the slaying in progress nor Geoghan's body.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...TAM&SECTION=US