[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Sorry, there was evidence at the trials that clearly implicated Law. In fact it cleraly shows that he did everything in his power to cover up the incidents (and by the way there were many) In fact there is a letter he wrote that is so damning that one can only conclude that this man cared more about his reputation then about the health of the kids in his diocese.

Show me the evidence. I may very well agree with you.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by Mulder

Well see this from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-1dcover_x.htm

As I said, and what you should know as well as I do, the media has a habit of stoking the fires--my Haliburton example was reminding you how many unfounded stories there were about Cheney's dealings with Haliburton--you don't remember?

Oh .... Well I certainly agree about the media. But is this behavior not considered mortally sinful under Church doctrine at ANY age?

The point I am making is while it certainly would not be at all unreasonable for Law to have been removed, it is also my be unreasonable to brand him some sort of sick monster akin to the people who committed the acts (as Linksy attempts to do) and then to further push that allegation onto the Pope.

Okay, fair enough. But obviously Law knew more than the Pope about the incidents.

I'm not defending Law, but he ran a huge disocese with thousands and thousands of priests. My guess would be his conduct was more negligent than it was sinister or evil. So bounce him out of his position fine. I think it was probably poor public relations to give him a high profile position in the Pope's funeral,

Agreed.

but the point is the man's life consists of 50 years of life devoted to the Church and to works of charity. Do you even know anything about Law other than the sex scandal issue? Is a man to be branded a "child molester enabler" for nelgigence?

Let's say a Police Sergeant learns from more than one source, that one of his officers is coercing citizens to have sex with him to avoid being arrested. So the Sergeant doesn't suspend the Officer pending investigation, but instead changes his beat to a different neighborhood where the activity continues. The Chief gets wind of it and does NOTHING to the Sergeant, in fact praises his moral courage.
As a citizen, would you not be outraged? Regardless how honorable, upstanding, and charitable that Police Sergeant was, you'd want his badge if you were a citizen of that town. But you'd DEMAND it if you were the Chief.
Law was a bad Sergeant, and unfortunately, the Chief was out of town.

Again, I would point out that you are agreeing here with a person who thinks Michael Schiavo is a hero while you think he's akin to a murderer. I don't think Law should be forced to bear the scarlet letter of pedophile because he failed to take appropriate action to remove a pedophile--not unless I've reviewed all of the evidence and the evidence is strong that his motives were either evil or that he knew or should have known that his actions would result in further pedophile activity.

So what. I agree with Lisky's basic premise about Cardinal Law and even the Pope in this instance. However, I will cut you the slack about painting Cardinal Law with the scarlet letter of pedophile for not taking the action he should have.
BUT, I AM SHOCKED THAT YOU (A CATHOLIC) ARE NOT CALLING FOR A ROPE AROUND HIS HEAD!
If I were still a practicing Catholic, you can bet I'd make damned sure (no pun intended) that my congregation knew that everything in my power would be done to prevent this from ever, EVER happening again. And that is just from a parishioner's perspective. If I were the District Cardinal I would be ashamed beyond belief and would lead the charge to excommunicate the homo-pedophile.

Paul Shanley http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4245133.stm
Ordained in 1960
Served as "street priest" until 1979
Appointed as priest for the parish of Newton, Massachusetts in 1980
Promoted to pastor in 1984
Transferred to California in 1990
Arrested May 2002
Defrocked May 2004
Convicted of rape February 2005

link
LOS ANGELES ? A 41-year-old priest assigned to St. Thomas the Apostle church in Koreatown was found guilty today of eight counts of child molestation involving three teen males beginning in 2001, the District Attorney?s Office announced.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=707
Priest Convicted Of Rape, May Get Life In Prison
Jun. 19, 1996
HOUMA, Louisiana (CWN) - A Catholic priest was convicted Tuesday of raping an altar boy for six years, and may face life in prison without parole.
Father Robert Melancon was convicted of raping the youth up to two and three times a month in the rectory of the parish between 1985 and 1991. The boy was 8 years old when the rapes allegedly began.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy173.html
Priest convicted of sexual abuse
Associated Press/June 27, 2003
By Bruce Schreiner
Shepherdsville, Ky. -- A Roman Catholic priest was convicted Thursday of sexually abusing two young boys from a family he befriended years ago.
The Rev. Daniel Clark was found guilty by a Bullitt County Circuit jury of two counts of first-degree sexual abuse. The jury acquitted Clark on one sodomy charge.
The jury of seven men and five women deliberated for about five hours over two days after the two-day trial that began Tuesday.

http://incestabuse.about.com/b/a/020523.htm
Former Priest Convicted of Sex Abuse Killed
Former priest John Geoghan, who was one of the most visible people associated with the Catholic Church sexual abuse scandal, was killed in prison Saturday, according to the Associated Press.
Over 130 people claimed that Geoghan assaulted them during his 30 year term as a priest in Boston.

The google search of the term "Priest Convicted" shows up with over HALF A MILLION HITS, Chris. http://www.google.com/search?q=Pries...&start=10&sa=N

Would you care to make a wager about what crime Catholic Priests are most often convicted in America ????? It ain't drunk driving!

How can you admonish a sitting Pope from not even commenting on this except to say he didn't think that a Priest having homosexual sex with a 17 year old BOY is any real thing with which to be concerned.

<---- beyond belief!

If I was a Catholic, I'd want heads to roll for not only the crime against the civilians, but for crimes against GOD HIMSELF!




This hasn't been, and will never seem to be an isolated problem, Chris.
Unfortunately, I do not have anything to convince me that it has stopped or even slowed.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by Mulder

Show me the evidence. I may very well agree with you.

If you get that evidence, will you admit that the problem is far more serious and COMMONPLACE than you had originally thought?

[LANMaster]

I'd love to cointinue this, but I must skeedadle.

Oh, and Chris, by refusing to deal with this issue seriously, the Catholic Church is acting far more like a Liberal body than a Conservative one.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

If you get that evidence, will you admit that the problem is far more serious and COMMONPLACE than you had originally thought?

I posted an article for you from USA today where they showed that in fact the media makes it appear to be far more commonplace than it is. There is no more abhorrent behavior from priests as there is in any other faction of society and probably less. The problem is there are a lot of Catholic haters that want to use this as an indictment of the Church rather than the guilty individuals--that simply is not fair.

Anyway, I was talking about the evidence concerning Law, not evidence generally.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

I'd love to cointinue this, but I must skeedadle.

Oh, and Chris, by refusing to deal with this issue seriously, the Catholic Church is acting far more like a Liberal body than a Conservative one.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm beginning to think you are a bit hypocritical when it comes to the media--ready to claim their bias and unreliability when it comes to Republicans, but not when it comes to your own pet issues! This is from the USA today article I linked to above:

Very few accused priests remain in positions in which they can easily use their authority to abuse minors. About a tenth have been pulled from the priesthood and returned to lay status. Most of the others in the USA TODAY survey, while still under the authority of the church, have been removed from their positions and are forbidden to dress as priests or serve in public ministry. About a third have been placed on administrative leave pending investigation.

Most abusive priests are not serial predators, despite the publicity about a few accused of abusing many children. [b]One in 10 accused priests account for more than half the known allegations, while 40% have been accused of abuse by only one person. Of the 25,616 priests who have served in the 10 dioceses since 1965, slightly fewer than 1% have been named publicly in allegations.

What do you expect the Church to do? Ex Communicate every priest that has been accused of molestation? Much of this has been sensationalized by he media and anyone who resents Catholics (as you obviously do) use this stuff make it look like there is this huge problem with priests when there isn't. In fact, the vast majority of it isn't an issue of child molestation, it is homosexual relations among priests and teens. I don't mean to downplay it, but it is no different in the Catholic Church than it is in any other Church.

Please see this link:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea2.asp

which does a good job at describing and explaining the problem. If you want media spin, don't read the link, if you want to really understand, read the link.

[linskyjack]

Here is something---I will look for the source of that information later---have to run:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org...-documents.htm

[poochee]

Originally Posted by Mulder

In fact, the vast majority of it isn't an issue of child molestation, it is homosexual relations among priests and teens. I don't mean to downplay it, but it is no different in the Catholic Church than it is in any other Church.

I disagree: If this happens in a Protestant church, the Minister (if caught) is going to prison. I have never heard of one being protected by a Bishop. In my church you can't work with children, or the elderly, unless you have been finger-printed and checked out because we know there are sinners, even in the Church. Priests are put on a pedestal, and they can get away with more than a Protestant Minister can. I know people that actually worship their Priest. They are wrong, because he is only a mortal man, to be respected not worshiped. The Catholic Church made an error by not immediately moving on this and having these Priests arrested and incarcerated. It is unfortunate, because innocent Priests are now suspect. I might add, I attended Catholic School for eight years, even though I am a Protestant. I also have many Catholic relatives.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by poochee

I disagree: If this happens in a Protestant church, the Minister (if caught) is going to prison. I have never heard of one being protected by a Bishop. In my church you can't work with children, or the elderly, unless you have been finger-printed and checked out because we know there are sinners, even in the Church. Priests are put on a pedestal, and they can get away with more than a Protestant Minister can. I know people that actually worship their Priest. They are wrong, because he is only a mortal man, to be respected not worshiped. The Catholic Church made an error by not immediately moving on this and having these Priests arrested and incarcerated. It is unfortunate, because innocent Priests are now suspect. I might add, I attended Catholic School for eight years, even though I am a Protestant. I also have many Catholic relatives.

I'm sorry but you are living in a fantasy world. First, you have no idea what happens in your church or with you minister--do you have a video camera recording everything your minister does? And what about other parishes--you know what goes on there as well? Your minsiter might have had a homosexual encounter with a teenager-how do you know?. You also have no rational or empircal basis to claim that priests are "put on a pedestal" whatever the hell that means or that people worship their priest in the Catholic church anymore than you do that people don't do it a Protestant Church--what an absurd statement.

One of the things that frustrates me so much on this site, whether its this topic or some other is the ridiculous statements and conclusions people draw based on "anecdotal" evidence which is based on pure ignorance. Your comment is nothing more than rank speculation without a shred of any credibility behind it.

Here is something a bit more scientific:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea2.asp

In his book Pedophiles and Priests, Prof. Philip Jenkins—a Protestant and an expert in the subject of pedophilia—stated, "The most-quoted survey of sexual problems among Protestant clergy states that some ten percent are involved in sexual misconduct of some kind, and that 'about two or three percent' are pedophiles, a rate equal or higher than that suggested for Catholic priests. These figures should be viewed skeptically; the methodology on which they are based is not clear, and they seem to rely disproportionately on individuals already in therapy. However, it is striking to find such a relatively high number suggested for both celibate and non-celibate clergy" (pp. 50-51).

And where do you get the idea that priests don't go to prison for sexual crimes? Niether Bishops or the Pope himself can protect someone against the district attorney. If a person makes a complaint to the authorities, the authorities don't give a damn if the person is a priest, a minister or a liberal--they are going to be prosecuted if there is enough evidence. Explain to me how in the hell a Bishop is able to stop a priest from going to jail?

Honestly, the absurdity of claims made on this issue is astonishing to me. And I'm certianly not defending the Catholic Church, I'm defending common sense and rational thinking, which always seems to be in short supply around here!

[poochee]

Originally Posted by Mulder

I'm sorry but you are living in a fantasy world. First, you have no idea what happens in your church or with you minister--do you have a video camera recording everything your minister does? And what about other parishes--you know what goes on there as well? Your minsiter might have had a homosexual encounter with a teenager-how do you know?. You also have no rational or empircal basis to claim that priests are "put on a pedestal" whatever the hell that means or that people worship their priest in the Catholic church anymore than you do that people don't do it a Protestant Church--what an absurd statement.

One of the things that frustrates me so much on this site, whether its this topic or some other is the ridiculous statements and conclusions people draw based on "anecdotal" evidence which is based on pure ignorance. Your comment is nothing more than rank speculation without a shred of any credibility behind it.

Here is something a bit more scientific:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea2.asp



And where do you get the idea that priests don't go to prison for sexual crimes? Niether Bishops or the Pope himself can protect someone against the district attorney. If a person makes a complaint to the authorities, the authorities don't give a damn if the person is a priest, a minister or a liberal--they are going to be prosecuted if there is enough evidence. Explain to me how in the hell a Bishop is able to stop a priest from going to jail?

Honestly, the absurdity of claims made on this issue is astonishing to me. And I'm certianly not defending the Catholic Church, I'm defending common sense and rational thinking, which always seems to be in short supply around here!

I will continue my 'fantasy" thinking until proven wrong. I know more about Protestant Churches than you do. Unless you are an unusual Catholic. I base my opinions on what I learned in Catholic school and what my Catholic friends tell me. Of course, they know very little about Protestants.

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by Mulder

I'm sorry but you are living in a fantasy world. First, you have no idea what happens in your church or with you minister--do you have a video camera recording everything your minister does? And what about other parishes--you know what goes on there as well? Your minsiter might have had a homosexual encounter with a teenager-how do you know?. You also have no rational or empircal basis to claim that priests are "put on a pedestal" whatever the hell that means or that people worship their priest in the Catholic church anymore than you do that people don't do it a Protestant Church--what an absurd statement.

One of the things that frustrates me so much on this site, whether its this topic or some other is the ridiculous statements and conclusions people draw based on "anecdotal" evidence which is based on pure ignorance. Your comment is nothing more than rank speculation without a shred of any credibility behind it.

Here is something a bit more scientific:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea2.asp



And where do you get the idea that priests don't go to prison for sexual crimes? Niether Bishops or the Pope himself can protect someone against the district attorney. If a person makes a complaint to the authorities, the authorities don't give a damn if the person is a priest, a minister or a liberal--they are going to be prosecuted if there is enough evidence. Explain to me how in the hell a Bishop is able to stop a priest from going to jail?

Honestly, the absurdity of claims made on this issue is astonishing to me. And I'm certianly not defending the Catholic Church, I'm defending common sense and rational thinking, which always seems to be in short supply around here!

Mulder , in answer to your question "how in the hell a Bishop is able to stop a priest from going to jail? " ----by withholding evidence.
This is in itself , a crime, and has legal fix.
I agree with you for the most part, people who enjoy the trust of children, often have motives---not just Priests.
In all my years I have never came in contact with a bad one, in fact, some of the finest men I have ever met.
All this is covered by law. The workings of the Church is another matter.
I believe its being dealt with now, though I havent followed it closely.
Its a shame that people want to think of Priests as molesters, as it is not a realistic assessment.>f

[linskyjack]

Actually, despite efforts of Law and others, several priests have been indicted, tried, and are serving time in prison. I dont think this has anything to do with what Christian demonination you belong too.

[angelize56]

Law's farewell letter in December 2002:

I am profoundly grateful to the Holy Father for having accepted my resignation as Archbishop of Boston.

It is my fervent prayer that this action may help the Archdiocese of Boston to experience the healing, reconciliation and unity which are so desperately needed.

To all those who have suffered from my shortcomings and mistakes I both apologize and from them beg forgiveness.

To the bishops, priests, deacons, religious and laity, with whom I have been privileged to work in our efforts to fulfill the Church's mission, I express my deep gratitude. My gratitude extends as well to so many others with whom I have been associated in serving the common good; these include those from the ecumenical, Jewish, and wider interreligious communities as well as public officials and others in the civil society.

The particular circumstances of this time suggest a quiet departure. Please keep me in your prayers.-- Bernard Cardinal Law

[MacFromOK]

Hmmm...Catholicism aside, isn't it pretty much against the law to aid and abet criminals?

I also doubt pedophiles feel any compunction to prey (no pun intended) strictly inside their faith, so a cover up potentially puts all children in the area at risk - meaning these incidents were not necessarily a "Catholic issue".

I agree with the premise of respect Mulder, but putting Law in a high position with world-wide media coverage would prolly draw fire on any occasion.

Cheers, Mac

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by Mulder

I posted an article for you from USA today where they showed that in fact the media makes it appear to be far more commonplace than it is. There is no more abhorrent behavior from priests as there is in any other faction of society and probably less. The problem is there are a lot of Catholic haters that want to use this as an indictment of the Church rather than the guilty individuals--that simply is not fair.

Anyway, I was talking about the evidence concerning Law, not evidence generally.

I prefer a zero tolerance for Priests committing homosexual pedophilia.
I guess once in a while is okay with you.