[teengeekgrrl]

I don't think it should have ever been put it in the first place, but I wanna hear what you guys have to say. I'll post my more detailed opinion after I see a couple votes.

[linskyjack]

Teen, well it is in there so I guess thats the way its going to be. If it said, under one Christian God, or one Hindu God, or under one Muslim god, I would have a problem with it. I think the simplest thing for an atheist to do is not say the pledge. I dont think the seperation of church and state comes into play with the pledge.

[teengeekgrrl]

Yeah, you have a point there.

[thingamajig]

I had to weigh in and vote no teengeekgirl... The pledge is meant for every citizen and not just those that believe in a supreme being. I disagree with Linsky that separation of church and state should not apply to the pledge.

Personally, I won't even say the pledge right now because I pledge no allegiance to any entity that won't return the gesture.

[linskyjack]

I like to pick my fights vis a vis seperation of church and state on more critical issues---ones that you don't have the option of ignoring. God could mean anything in the pledge---it could be a he, she, or it----it could be a dog, a cat a mouse. As I said before you have the option of removing it all together from the pledge. I assure you, when I was a kid, and we said the pledge every day before class began, I was to busy looking at Jane's legs to pay attention to the words.

[MacFromOK]

Is anyone actually required to say the pledge anyway? Just curious.

Cheers, Mac

[linskyjack]

I am not sure about that---I vaguely remember having to say it as a kid---but I am not sure what goes on today. When we had to say it, it wasn't as if anyone was actually watching you to see that you said it--most of us mumbled it because it was so early in the morning.

[MacFromOK]

Hmmm...legal immigrants applying for citizenship maybe?

Cheers, Mac

[linskyjack]

LOL---I think they take an oath--but I dont think its the pledge, and I am not sure if it mentions God. Here it is and it does mention God at the end.


I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. In acknowledgement whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature.

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by thingamajig

I had to weigh in and vote no teengeekgirl... The pledge is meant for every citizen and not just those that believe in a supreme being. I disagree with Linsky that separation of church and state should not apply to the pledge.

Personally, I won't even say the pledge right now because I pledge no allegiance to any entity that won't return the gesture.

Thing, Over the last 5 yrs , I have changed my opinion greatly.
I am almost to the point of agreeing with you---elimination of all superstition ---religion ect from Govt. Treating all citizens as CITIZENS without all the personal belief stuff.
The only thing that bothers me is the historical factor. It cannot be ignored.
The fact that the majority of U.S. citizens subsribe to religious belief is no problem , its only when it shoved down others throats, that it becomes problem, as it is becoming.
I am citizen ---as far the GOVT is concerned--not disciple--member of parish-or any other religios group.
I have always believed that religion should be something practiced personally--- in home---in place of worship.
The GOVT should represent ALL of us, TAXPAYERS and citizens--not just a simple majority of believers in the various faiths. I would now like to dump it all--if theres a God---he doesn't need the GOVT to cover his a$$.
Historical problems remain. It is difficult to move forward, beyond this problem, and it will get worse. >f

[linskyjack]

Fidelsta, thats a very eloquent way of putting it----

[MacFromOK]

Thanks LJ, I had just found a copy of that when I saw your post.

I find it ironic that folks rebel against "under God" in the pledge, yet don't have any problem receiving/spending money that says "In God we trust".

All a matter of convenience I suppose...

Cheers, Mac

[Maritimesea]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

I am not sure about that---I vaguely remember having to say it as a kid---but I am not sure what goes on today. When we had to say it, it wasn't as if anyone was actually watching you to see that you said it--most of us mumbled it because it was so early in the morning.

I recall when I was a kid in elementary school(early seventies)we had to sing O'Canada followed by the Our Father prayer. That was brutal.

In todays multi cultural environment the Our father would be unthinkable, which I think is just as well, keep religion in the churches where it belongs.

[linskyjack]

I'm not sure about the history of currency graphics---I vaguely remember someone telling me that "In God We Trust" is relatively new--I could be wrong. Maritesea, was that in a public or Catholic school? Thats pretty amazing if it was a public school.

[Rep]

Is this issue really important to you? Or, is having health care for your families more important?

There are forces in our country that would rather see us discuss these hot button type issues rather than focus attention on other issues.