[trev.h]

My friends son was yet another victim of drunken louts on a friday night. He was attacked with a bottle and needed stiches, fortunately there is no permanent damage. He wasn't even in the pub, he was walking past with his girlfriend.

In the UK, drunken violence on a Friday and Saturday night is a big problem in our towns and cities. The amazing thing is that our government (Tony Blair and his cronies) is completely out of touch with the problem, and against the advice of experts including the police seem convinced that the best way to tackle this problem is to extend licencing hours to 24 hours.

I am really fed up with seeing the country I once loved going down the tubes. The licencing changes are just another nail in the coffin. When my children have finished with their education (I have 4, with 3 in varying stages of GCSE and A Levels) I will be retiring abroad, not sure where yet.

I have returned from 2 weeks in Corfu. Speaking to the locals they say they don't have the problems we have, but their youth are taught respect. I think it is significant that they still have national service, as did the locals.

On my return from holiday, I had to go into town (Croydon in Surrey) to get my phone repaired. I heard more foul language in the hour I was shopping than I did in my 2 weeks in Corfu.

Something needs doing, but how to do it I really don't know.

[TechnutJay]

Originally Posted by trev.h

My friends son was yet another victim of drunken louts
I have returned from 2 weeks in Corfu. Speaking to the locals they say they don't have the problems we have, but their youth are taught respect. I think it is significant that they still have national service, as did the locals.

On my return from holiday, I had to go into town (Croydon in Surrey) to get my phone repaired. I heard more foul language in the hour I was shopping than I did in my 2 weeks in Corfu.

Something needs doing, but how to do it I really don't know.

Why don't you start a town meeting and take the pubs to court and if you win use it to pay bigger bullies to stop the crap, put a spot light at where the problem is and get media if you can, I know easy said then done. If this is allow to long it'll just be harder to stop. I would hate living there. Thanks for the tip in case I ever like to get out of this country U.S.A

[SIR****TMG]

Good Grief........ sorry to hear about the stiches and attacked....

[little den]

I'm not sure whether or not you are saying that you disagree with the 24 hour license or not, but I'll add my two cents in, for what it's worth...

We've had 24hour licensed premises in NZ for quite sometime now. I worked as one of the Managers in a bar with that license for several years.
What I found is; people don't fully understand the bars side of the coin...
Over here (especially the city I'm in), we have a large number of 'inner city' bars that operate with the extended license. There were obviously a number of objections to this being put into place, and, still are.
The main objection is what you have mentioned - the violence. That and the mess left in town afterward.
We have systems in place down here that all bars have to adhere to, otherwise they run the risk of losing their operating license.
One thing they cannot do is serve 'intoxicated people'. Now who is to say who is intoxicated and who is not? The bar is. After all, the manager faces a fine of up $10,000 and loss or suspension of (General Managers) License, loss or suspension of Trading License, and the person that served the intoxicated customer can be fined up to $2000.
The policing body (the R.A.I.D Squad) and the District Licensing Authority are very strict as far as this particular goes, as well they should be.
We (the Hospitality Industry) know we have an obligation to the General Public to ensure we provide a safe atmosphere both inside AND outside the establishment.
The violence on the street is hard to monitor.
What a lot of people didn't realize is; the trouble on the street wasn't caused by 'intoxicated people from that bar', but from people that couldn't get into the bars because of their level of intoxication from drinking at home. Either that, or they were asked to leave one bar, refused entry at another and were then so annoyed that they caused trouble for people out having a good time!
Now cancelling the extended license has a follow on effect. There are people that need the income to survive, and shorteneing hours will result in job losses. This in turn affects the economy (over here the single biggest empoying industry is the Hospitality Industry).
All of this because people feel that it is the fault of the bars, when in fact a lot of it comes back to (as you mentioned) education. This needs to be done at home AND by the government and Bars.

So, my point is; lack of education is a major part of the problem, and it will need a combined effort to correct this.

Oh, and just as a point of interest...

The drinking age was dropped from 20yrs to 18yrs in 1998 (I think), and I have seen more problems from the younger ones than the older ones. These young ones were not 'educated' as well as they could have been (lack of advertising on TV/radio and home), and with alcohol they tend to show the '10 feet tall and bulletproof' syndrome more than anyone else.
Also, again in my own experience, we found girls were the cause of more problems than the guys. The guys certainly did the physical side but the girls were often the ones that instigated a lot of the problems.
Please note; this is not meant as a sexist comment, merely an observation with a lot of years experience.

[trev.h]

This incident happened as a result of a few intoxicated people outside the bar getting a bit exuberant, one phoned his friends inside to tell them what was going on (mobile phones, gee aren't they great), and six more drunks wanting to get involved, one of which used the bottle and is being charged with GBH.

Little Den, you are correct about the lack of education. I have always attempted to ensure my children are well brought up and behave responsibly (so far they have, I hope this continues). I am to be a junior rugby coach and martial arts coach, I feel I help keep youth off the streets and keep their mind and body active. All 4 of my children are active with sports and I am a firm believer in sport as a developer of character.

I do however fail to see how extending licencing hours helps the economy. Have you always had 24 hour licencing in NZ? If not, then did you have high unemployment prior to 24 hr licencing. Surley it is relative, if all bars are open at the same time, then the percentage of customers they receive as a portion of the whole will be maintained, regardless of whether they are open 24 hrs or 12 hrs.

I don't think people directly blame the bar managers. Unfortunately in the UK there seems to be a "drink till you fall over" mentality, people seem unable to restrain themselves. If you speak to other countries many find this strange. But how do you educate an entire nation, certainly not be making alcohol even more available.

[little den]

No we have not always had a 24 hour license, and yes it is relative, but consider this;
if a bar is to stay open past the time of a tavern, then they will surely get a large number of customers after that time, therefore a place that would normally have 2 staff behind the bar (example), would now require 6-7 people on that same bar to cope with numbers and too ensure the smooth operation of business. They would also need possibly 4 security staff on (to deal with minors, intoxication, trouble etc).
The bar that would normally have 2 on for one days trade, has now employed an extra 10 people.

As for the education...
The government has to foot a large part of the cost. We have a 'Liquor Advisory Board' here that ensures advertising is done correctly, showing both sides - the 'fun side' and the dangers of drinking beyond your means. This is a costly exercise, but the cost is insignificant when weighed against not doing anything.
The bars too must play a significant role in this advertising. Posters displayed as much as possible inside the bar, personal interaction from staff* and in their advertising.
Even schools down here play a role in teaching the children. After all, for many kids all over the world alcohol related problems are part of their lives.

If, at the start of the 24 licensing policy, it was structured correctly by the government, police, bars and all other associated bodies, there would be less problems.

In my opinion, the bar that you mentioned was definitely at fault. They should take responsibilty. If they had security, then the staff would have known what was going on and prevented this from happening.
They should be charged with allowing an individual to become intoxicated and allowing him to become aggressive. We can get charged with this over here.

Yes it is a two way street, and I appreciate you saying people don't blame the bar.

Ld.

[dugq]

Sorry to hear about your son, I hope he's okay.

Personally I'm in favour of the new licensing laws, but only to avoid the insanity on the streets when 11pm comes. I don't think it will change the way people drink and give us more continental drinking habits as the government supposes.

There seems to be something deeply engrained into British culture that makes many Brits drink until they fall down, or knock someone else down. You can see the "stick it down your throat until you can no longer see" mentality in the drugs culture as well, and is pretty disturbing. I honestly don't know what the solution is.

[little den]

By the sounds of it, the Police don't have enough presence in bars. As i mentioned in my earlier post, we have a group specifically designated for this. They go to the bars (especially the late night ones) and make sure things are kept 'honest'.
They are very strict, sometimes taking the District Licensing Authority (D.L.A.) with them.
The D.L.A. are the inspectors that grant licenses here. They go to a bar and make sure the Managers are obeying every single section of our Sale Of Liquor Act. It is extremely strict here, so the 'drink til you drop' mentality doesn't enter into it.

BTW, I too am sorry to hear about your son and also hope he is ok.

[A_erised]

dugq, your statement about 24 hour licensing NOT creating the 11p.m. traffic problem, makes me smile. Our time here in my neck of the woods makes the dangerous time from midnight to two depending on travel time. That would mean we get the opportunity to avoid those crunch times on the roads. 24 hour drinking would just mean, folks would be coming and going 24 hours a day. I would think from a law enforcement POV it would be much harder, and more of a problem.

We in the states are not very good about policing our drinking establishments. Nor the folks who use them.


trev.h, I hope your son makes a speedy recovery.

[dugq]

To be honest, I wasn't really referring to the driving, more to the violence on the streets. With the pubs closing at 11pm everybody who has been drinking that night ends up on the streets at the same time, which leads to a lot of drunken violence. One of the intentions of the new licensing laws is to stagger the times at which people leave the pub.

[little den]

Originally Posted by dugq

To be honest, I wasn't really referring to the driving, more to the violence on the streets. With the pubs closing at 11pm everybody who has been drinking that night ends up on the streets at the same time, which leads to a lot of drunken violence. One of the intentions of the new licensing laws is to stagger the times at which people leave the pub.

Exactly! You get a few thousand people on the streets at the same time and you end up with chaos! There aren't enough taxis to cover the amount of people hitting the roads at the same time.

Also, there are not enough police to cover the mayhem AND the drink-driving! It all comes back to the systems in place to ensure a safe enviroment (as safe possible anyway).

[little den]

Originally Posted by A_erised

dugq, your statement about 24 hour licensing NOT creating the 11p.m. traffic problem, makes me smile. Our time here in my neck of the woods makes the dangerous time from midnight to two depending on travel time. That would mean we get the opportunity to avoid those crunch times on the roads. 24 hour drinking would just mean, folks would be coming and going 24 hours a day. I would think from a law enforcement POV it would be much harder, and more of a problem.

We in the states are not very good about policing our drinking establishments. Nor the folks who use them.


trev.h, I hope your son makes a speedy recovery.

Oddly enough, folks do not go out 24hours a day. In fact, we have run the occasional promotion that required a 24hour running time and people still went home reasonably early.
In fact, at one stage (for approx. 3-4hours), the bar was empty except for the people involved in the promotion.

In all cases MOST people excercise common sence. It's the 'bad' element that make it hard for everyone else.

[izme]

I am kind of glad that we don't have 24 hour bars here. I use 2 A.M. as a measuring tool to see how drunk I am, If every woman in the bar is equally hot, it's time for me to go home because I have drank too much

[little den]

[Ciberblade]

24 hour drinking?

When would they sleep?