[MSM Hobbes]

With trying to keep politics and finger-pointing to a very bare minimum, lets see if its at all possible to have a thread looking at just the honest facts of this entire event.

To start, following are some timelines of events:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...769493,00.html

http://www.ojr.org/ojr/wiki/Katrina_Timeline/

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/katrina-timeline.php

http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/...ina_Chronology

Many points are also found w/in this site:
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporlea...s/2005_09.html

...especially this interesting tidbit about a potential barge damage to one of the levees: http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporlea...09.html#077898

In any case, as said in another post, it don't matter if its a donkey, an elephant, or what kind of animal, there has been more than enough political crap spread. What are the facts, what is the truth? Who knew what, when? What can be learned from this tragedy to reduce the possibility of a repeat? What could have been realistically done to have prevented or minimized the severity?

[izme]

Great thread Hobbes

finger pointing only limit's Accountability

Hurricane Katrina strengthens to become a category five hurricane and heads north toward New Orleans

That statement will stick in my mind and give me chills now that I have seen what it did.

I remember seeing that and remembering about New Orleans being below sea level, in a bowl so to speak, I had wondered when one would hit it and knew of the damage that would happen.

[linskyjack]

I like to see Katrina as a very typical expression of the American world view. Live for the day---don't worry about the future, and put on the blinders when confronted by reality.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

I like to see Katrina as a very typical expression of the American world view. Live for the day---don't worry about the future, and put on the blinders when confronted by reality.

Good point--most Americans live for the day without a lot of thought about the future.

[slickoe]

Who knew what when? Here is what the national weather service knew at the stated date and time. Right on the money, the only thing they omitted was the looting and 3 day strranding of evacuees at the NOLA arenas w/o food or water.
_________________________________________________________________
WWUS74 KLIX 281550NPWLIX ******* URGENT ******- WEATHER MESSAGE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA

1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED

HURRICANE KATRINA MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED STRENGTH... RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY DAMAGED OR DESTROYED. THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL, PARTIALLY DUE TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED.

ALL WOOD FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED.

CONCRETE BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT. AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES.

SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS... AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED.

WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE KILLED.

AN INLAND HURRICANE WIND WARNING IS ISSUED WHEN SUSTAINED WINDS NEAR HURRICANE FORCE...OR FREQUENT GUSTS AT OR ABOVE HURRICANE FORCE.. ARE CERTAIN WITHIN THE NEXT 12 TO 24 HOURS. ONCE TROPICAL STORM AND HURRICANE FORCE WINDS ONSET...DO NOT VENTURE OUTSIDE!

LAZ038-040-050-056>070-282100-ASSUMPTION-LIVINGSTON-LOWER JEFFERSON- LOWER LAFOURCHE-LOWER PLAQUEMINES-LOWER ST. BERNARD-LOWER TERREBONNE-ORLEANS-ST. CHARLES-ST. JAMES-ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST-ST. TAMMANY-TANGIPAHOA-UPPER JEFFERSON- UPPER LAFOURCHE-UPPER PLAQUEMINES-UPPER ST. BERNARD-UPPER TERREBONNE- 1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

[MSM Hobbes]

Originally Posted by Mulder

Good point--most Americans live for the day without a lot of thought about the future.

First, is this a record of some kind??? Mulder quoting AND agreeing with Linsky???

Seriously - both of you, sadly, are truly 100% correct. Shame that our collective mentallity in this country is such; live for the quarter, not the long-term investment/needs that should be addressed.

For example, look at what the Netherlands did w/ their levees - could such have been done for NO?

[bizzt]

Originally Posted by MSM Hobbes

For example, look at what the Netherlands did w/ their levees - could such have been done for NO?

That is a Very good Point about the Netherlands. The have many Levees actually not just by the Sea but Many inland as well from what I remember when I Visited!

[MSM Hobbes]

Thanks fish...

Guess that I'm too much of an anal-scientific-engineer. Like at work, it is one of my many tasks to ascertain the "why's" of when something is out of control, for example when the variance of a process is not within statistical limits. Likewise, I assign all of my team members and those that report to me with (1) specific tasks, (2) due dates, and (3) ownership to take care of what in their decision needs to be addressed to get the job done by the required date. While recognizing people and politics due play an important role, that is NOT an accepable excuse as to why things don't get done or if they do screw up, to then use for finger pointing. In my world, being trained and a believer in what is called Six Sigma, there are what is called the "six M's"...
1. Manpower [people]
2. Machines [equipment]
3. Materials
4. Methods [operating procedures, rules, etc.]
5. Mother Nature [the environment]
6. Measurement [gages, data analysis, calibration, etc.]

All of these have an impact upon the various variables of anything in life - and its how we can understand, analyze, control, and minimize their impact, through scientific methodologies, NOT politics, that we can improve. Gosh durn... I be one naive fool, tain't I?

slickoe - I recall seeing that... powerful statements; wonder who all in the proper "loop" actually saw and understood the potentials? Reminds me somewhat of that documentary on "Isaac's Storm", the Galveston, TX hurricane that wiped out 6k people: I believe it was the head cheese of the Weather Bureau at that time dismissed the abilities and then forbid the Cuban weathermen from using the wireless transmitters to let DC know what they saw and understood of the storm when it passed their area. Sadly, what they knew being dismissed, and what Isaac Cline believed due to his limited resources and "ego", led to many thousands of deaths.

[sglv]

Well, the news all day Sunday (before) the hurricane struck stated over and over the devastation this hurricane would cause if it hit at a category 5. As fascinated as I was by the science being explained and the resulting damage, I was very worried for the city. George Bush signed an emergency order (hopefully not the one posted on another thread), the mayor declared an evacuation, the governor declared an evacuation. I watched as they slowly processed the mass amount of people at the Superdome. At the rate they were going, I didn't think they'd finish in time. If I'd have been an evacuee to the Superdome, and saw that line, I would believe there would be no way possible it would hold everyone.

All I know is I left my news on all night b/c it was set to hit early. Admittedly, the initial damage didn't seem as bad as projected, so they said, until the levees broke.

The end result is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by bizzt

That is a Very good Point about the Netherlands. The have many Levees actually not just by the Sea but Many inland as well from what I remember when I Visited!

In fairness, the Netherlands have been around for 2000 years so they've been through flooding before and they don't get hurricanes. Also, I am not sure that you can protect the city against a Category 4 or 5 hurricane no matter what you do.

[sglv]

Originally Posted by Mulder

Also, I am not sure that you can protect the city against a Category 4 or 5 hurricane no matter what you do.

So true, but you can protect the people of that city.

[MSM Hobbes]

Originally Posted by Mulder

In fairness, the Netherlands have been around for 2000 years so they've been through flooding before and they don't get hurricanes. Also, I am not sure that you can protect the city against a Category 4 or 5 hurricane no matter what you do.

True, and good point - there are many differences between NOLA and the Netherlands:
1. Type of soil involved
2. Weather-related effects
3. Mentality of the gov't and people
4. Mississippi River vs. Ocean
5. Settling of the NOLA dikes over time [related to 1 above]
6. etc...

Yet, the overall big-picture aspect is the same: land below sea-level that humans desire to remain dry. Given that, along with our means to create wonderful projects that can do just about anything [as long as the cost-to-benefit ratio is properly aligned... ], surely there was/is engineering means to protect NOLA from floods.

[MSM Hobbes]

For clarity upon what the official Corps of Engineers plans were, check out a taste of the following:

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/response/glossary.asp

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pd/pro...ProjectData%5C

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pd/pro...ProjectData%5C

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pd/projectsList/tasks.asp

[eggplant43]

I learned something today about NO on MSNBC I hadn't heard before. The natural action of the Mississippi River is to flood annually, which disperses mud (soil) into the Delta. However, since man attempted to protect NO by creating levees, this soil now goes to the ocean instead, the net effect was a sinking of NO each decade by 3'.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by eggplant43

I learned something today about NO on MSNBC I hadn't heard before. The natural action of the Mississippi River is to flood annually, which disperses mud (soil) into the Delta. However, since man attempted to protect NO by creating levees, this soil now goes to the ocean instead, the net effect was a sinking of NO each decade by 3'.

Thanks, everyone, for keeping this un-partisan.

The Mississippi was diverted some 60 years ago, and the newer French Quarter was build on top of the delta which was created by the flow of the river.
So the city has actually been settling in the sand for all that time.

In addition, the new delta created from the diversion has caused the river outside the levies to grow in altitude causing the river's water level to rise at the same time.

Make no mistake folks, this disaster WILL happen again.

Should NO be rebuilt? Sure, but there is now a GOLDEN opportunity to create something truly amazing. A city which is deliberately made to live in flood waters. Something like Venice Italy, only MUCH BETTER!

Picture this;

1. ALL houses would be built on anchored cement/piling foundations approximately 4-8 feet above mean ground level.
2. Valves and pumps could rather easily be installed so that a constant gentle flow of Mississippi river water would circulate throughout the city at a constant controlled flood level. (keeping the water much cleaner than Venice)
3. Certain amounts of silt and sand would be allowed to flow through the city so that the normal flow wouldn't erode the foundation of the city.
4. All transportation throughout the city would be by boat. You could even create an entire electric boat industry and mandate no gas engines beyond a certain size so that the water would even stay cleaner.
Create a mandate that no gas engines beyond 15 CCs (enough for a slow john boat)
This would force the creation of a new industry to create electric transportation boats which could be mass produced.

I'm not talking about the entire city of New Orleans. Only those areas which are probably still under 4-5 feet of water.

So you'd basically have two cities. Once city above ground which is already on higher ground and is beginning to dry up at this time, and a new smaller city designed to be partially submerged.

I doubt this could really happen under current thinking because of the existing poverty of the area. (and I don't mean that as a political remark)
But this could end up being a very affluent area.