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Troops in Iraq


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drugsarebad's Avatar
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15-Oct-2005, 10:51 PM #1
Troops in Iraq
Should we keep the troops in Iraq?
Stoner's Avatar
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15-Oct-2005, 10:53 PM #2
Welcome to TSG

What is your position?
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15-Oct-2005, 10:55 PM #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoner
Welcome to TSG

What is your position?
Well, Im not quite sure yet, all I know is that Bush has pretty much screwed us over either way. I'm trying to here other ppls point of view to better understand the situation
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15-Oct-2005, 11:34 PM #4
Should we have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, should we have fought the war in Vietnam, should all the things that have happened in the past have happened? When will people understand that things are going to happen that we don't like no matter who is in office. You have to be rich to be in a prominent position in politics and you will not make any decision that will adversely affect your pocketbook regardless of what party you belong to.

I know that my grandson is in Iraq and right now he is safe after the last excursion on the Syrian boarder. Should he be there? Should the USA have fought in any war? Do the men and women in the military at any point in time have a say so in what happens? Of course not. We have to rely on the powers to be to make these decisions and the decisions they make might not always be right. We have been wrong in the past, but hindsight is always 20/20.
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16-Oct-2005, 03:50 AM #5
Hard to say! Should we have been there, no!
Should we leave now, very complicated!
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16-Oct-2005, 03:18 PM #6
Unfortunately, yes ! A job has been started and it must be finished !
xico's Avatar
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16-Oct-2005, 03:21 PM #7
Maybe this will shed a little light on the topic.

'Moslem Terrorism' Is
Fabricated By Intel Agencies
Commentary By Tim Beasley
Canberra, Australia
10-16-5

Dear Mr. Rense,

Thanks for posting the articles about the corrupt Indonesian military-fabricated Bali bombing, alleged to be financed by Western Intelligence Agencies.

Australians were devastatingly overwhelmed last week to find out that probably 88 Australians were massacred in Bali (as Joe Vialls suggested), just to create anti-Moslem hysteria among the Australian public in order to support sending Australian troops to Bush's Iraq war.

This SBS-TV documentary's indisputable evidence was the interview with the former Indonesian President who stated with absolute confidence that Indonesian military and/or police executed the Bali bombing operation!

That interview with this most and only honest Indonesian politician was the straw that broke the camel's back of every single Australian I have talked to since.

This left we Australians with a perplexing dilemma. We must now select one of only two choices as to who is telling the truth: our Australian politicians or the former Indonesian President (who is undisputedly honest).

I contacted 6 of my friends who watched this documentary and all of them agreed that if they had to choose, they would trust the honest Indonesian former President over our current Australian politicians, hands down.

Thanks to your website and other similar sites, we now know that most international events are staged today by Western Intelligence Agencies. I still remember the famous article about the mysterious stolen American cars having 'materialised' in Iraq found being prepared for 'suicide bombing'. http://www.aljazeera.com/

Who delivered these cars all the way from America to Iraq? Definitely not the 'Moslem terrorists' as they can very easily steal cars in Europe and the Middle East...as it is very common in these countries.

We all remember how the two British SAS men were caught in Basra, Iraq red-handed driving a booby-trapped car. http://www.rense.com/general67/boobie.htm

We also now know that two American commandos were caught red-handed preparing a 'suicide car' in Baghdad. http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/

The above cases are just the tip of an iceberg of deceit and death. There are many more similar reports by international news agencies. I would not be surprised if most suicide bombings in Iraq are the works of Intelligence Agencies...Israeli, US, British...causing horror and mayhem to perpetuate our hold on Iraqi oil and what's left of that God forsaken country forever.

Now, finally, all the cards are on the table. Everything is perfectly clear.

I am not going to weep for the Moslem countries - corrupt politicians control them all. If Moslem countries chose to commit suicide by keeping silent for years and keep cooperating with the West in exchange for short-term monetary gains, it is their problem. It's all over now, its too late!

Moslems leaders knew from day one that 911 was an inside job, and not a single one of them protested against us fabricating hate crimes against Moslems. Not only that, they knew the Moslem leadership practically participated in 911 (see Bush flying all the Saudi royalty family out of the USA on 911 - even when all air space over the USA was shut down). No! You will not find me shedding crocodile tears for Moslem countries, they are getting what their 'leaders' give them. http://www.rense.com/Datapages/popmechdat.htm

No More Crocodile Tears For Moslem Countries!

Since 911, and particularly the assassination of Dr. Kelly, astute readers must understand that our modern world is run EXCLUSIVELY by Western Intelligence Agencies. We should accept it and learn to live with it.

The entire BS about 'democracy' should be left to Intelligence Agency fronts such as Condi, CNN, Fox 'news' and the BBC (British Bull**** Corporation). We are now totally under the control of the NWO and we better get used to it. http://www.geocities.com/subliminals...ion/olson.html

We Australians like to complain about our politicians being stupid, uninformed or under American pressure. I would like to remind my Australian countrymen and women that we are now in the middle of WW3. We Westerners are at war against the Moslem world + China + Russia. There is NO mistake about it.

A million thanks to the brave and honest journalists at SBS-TV-Australia, who produced this once in a lifetime documentary which is turning our history upside down, and puts to shame all American 'journalism'!


Regards,

Tim Beasley
Canberra Australia


Despite Bali Expose - Intel Agencies Continue To Lie


Comment
from Jusuf Witular
Jakarta, Indonesia
10-16-5

Dear Rense.com,

What happening to you Americans, are you crazy?

Every Indonesian can tell you Moslems are not terrorists. You know our honorable president mister Abdurrahman Wahid said in Australian TV that Indonesian military exploded Bali bombing with American money, not moslem terorists.

Today, Aljazeera said that your president now inventing new lies! When you Americans stop all this hate? Why even our president say military did it, your inteligence agencies continue to lie?

Your president lied so many many times, but our president Abdurrahman Wahid never lied.

Very sincerely,

Jusuf Witular
Jakarta, Indonesia


http://www.rense.com/general68/inter.htm
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16-Oct-2005, 03:23 PM #8
Here's a little more.

Lies, Deception And Political Rhetoric

Aljazeera.com
10-15-5

Trying to justify the extended U.S. military presence in Iraq, the American President George W. Bush made new claims during his address to the National Endowment for Democracy, saying that there's a hidden plot by some "Islamic organisations" to create a "radical Islamic empire" starting with Iraq, The Associated Press reported.

"Our new enemy teaches that innocent individuals can be sacrificed to serve a political vision ... (and) militants believe that controlling one country will rally the Muslim masses, enabling them to overthrow all moderate governments in the region, and establish a radical Islamic empire that spans from Spain to Indonesia," Bush said.

It's long been known that the U.S. has aided armed groups since President Jimmy Carter, who in 1979 signed a secret executive order providing funding for the new Islamic Mujahedeen movement, which the CIA is believed to have trained in America, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.

The U.S. started in the eighties to train and arm the Afghans to fight the Soviets.

"Over the years the United States and Saudi Arabia expended about $40 billion on the war in Afghanistan. The CIA and its allies recruited, supplied and trained almost 100,000 Mujahedeen from forty Muslim countries, including Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Algeria, and Afghanistan itself. Among those who answered the call was Osama bin Laden (a Saudi dissident)".

"Largely created and funded by the CIA, the Mujahedeen mercenaries took on a life of their own. Hundreds of them returned home to Algeria, Chechnya, Kosovo, and Kashmir to carry on terrorist attacks."

President Bush has been trying lately to step up efforts to revive his nation's support to his unwise decision to invade Iraq. But the Irony in his latest speech is that he looked, unconsciously, committed to all evils he accused "Islamic fundamentalists" of.

Bush, who claims that the "Islamic movements" are seeking the creation of an empire, has been himself the biggest imperialist of the 21st century by initiating several conflicts across the Arab world and the Middle East, bringing more threats and insecurity to the world he claims to be on a mission to protect.

After destroying Afghanistan and turning it into a battle ground, Bush moved to Iraq on a mission to impose "democracy" on the country, apparently seeking, according to analysts, to turn it into a Persian Gulf version of Somalia, for the Iraqi constitution will eminently fail, as experts explain, if the new regime failed to win the Sunnis, support.

If dissolving the Iraqi nation and laying hand on the country's oil wealth wasn't the end of Bush's aspirations, experts predict that Syria will be the next on the American President's agenda, according to Newsday,

The U.S. has recently stepped up the pressure on Syria, with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld making subtle threats against it, claiming it harbors Abu Mus'ab Al Zarqawi, whom the U.S. maintains is the key leader of Iraq's "insurgency" and Al Qaeda man there.

It wouldn't be a surprise to see fierce battle between the U.S. occupation and the Syrian forces on Syria-Iraq border, leading up to the extension of the U.S. "liberatory" efforts in the Middle East.

The American President says that that the "Islamic fundamentalists" believe it is worth taking innocent lives for a political cause. While he has sacrificed nearly 2,000 of the U.S. military personnel and hundreds of thousands of Arabs and Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan for his own political agenda, on the basis of a bunch of lies which he failed to force the world to swallow.

Another Bush lie is that there are some hidden organisations seeking to spread "Islamic fundamentalism" across the Middle East. Bush has made it clear more than once that he seeks imposing an American-style "democracy" on the Iraqi nation, part of a wider agenda of spreading American-style "democracy" across the Middle East.

In 2002, Mo Mowlam, a former member of Tony Blair's cabinet stated in a report published by the Guardian, that the old tension between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia was behind the Bush administration's animus against Iraq.

"The possibility of the world's largest oil reserves falling into the hands of an anti-American, militant Islamist government is becoming ever more likely - and this is unacceptable.

"The Americans know they cannot stop such a revolution. They must therefore hope that they can control the Saudi oil fields, if not the government. And what better way to do that than to have a large military force in the field at the time of such disruption. In the name of saving the west, these vital assets could be seized and controlled. No longer would the U.S. have to depend on a corrupt and unpopular royal family to keep it supplied with cheap oil. If there is chaos in the region, the U.S. armed forces could be seen as a global saviour. Under cover of the war on terrorism, the war to secure oil supplies could be waged.

"This whole affair has nothing to do with a threat from Iraq - there isn't one. It has nothing to do with the war against terrorism or with morality. Saddam Hussein is obviously an evil man, but when we were selling arms to him to keep the Iranians in check he was the same evil man he is today. He was a pawn then and is a pawn now. In the same way he served western interests then, he is now the distraction for the sleight of hand to protect the west's supply of oil."

Bush has created a phantom enemy called "Islamic terrorism" to follow it everywhere, and spread the fear of it in an attempt to save his own political future.

Failing to give his nation a reasonable justification to launch Iraq war, Bush is starting to pitifully beg his people to support this illegal invasion.


http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/rev...ervice_ID=9597
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16-Oct-2005, 05:00 PM #9
Why don't we let results dictate the course of action?

High turnout, sunni participation in polls, and low volume of attacks during vote.

What a person of Xico's beliefs might not be willing to tell you is that the process occuring in Iraq is opening the door to increased freedom, increased welfare and increased participation in government in the Middle East. Theoretically at least, it all plays counter to the ideology that allows fundamentalist organizations to exist in mainstream Islam.

I think that justifies the US presence in Iraq, and its greater role in the global "war on terror", where ideologies are contested rather than armies or nations.

Al Qaeda in Iraq distributed leaflets demanding that Iraqis vote 'no' or face death. That sort of thing makes this conflict very plain to me in terms of right and wrong.
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16-Oct-2005, 05:13 PM #10
Xico, before you post articles mocking the concept of violent beliefs held in Islam, maybe you should examine the situation.

Its patently absurd to deny the fact that fundamentalist groups exist in Islam, preaching violence and using its holiest scriptures as rationalization, considering oh...The last several decades of terrorist attacks against western powers...

Allow me to name some non-existant terrorist organizations that have practiced suicide attacks or bombings against civilians or western interests, or preach religious war against foreigners and their muslim "collaborators":

Hezbollah, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), Al-Gamaat Al-Islamiyya (The Islamic Group), Al-Qaeda, Armed Islamic Group, Aden-Abyan Islamic Army, Harakat ul-Mujahidin, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba(Army of the Righteous), among others...

Source: PBS.org

Besides that, the idea of a pan-Islamic state is one trumpeted by not only Al Qaeda, but other extremist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and most Wahhabi-inspired organizations.
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"The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheeps for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as his liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty. Plainly, the sheep and the wolf are not agreed upon a definition of liberty."
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16-Oct-2005, 06:23 PM #11
Native Americans have been dealing with terrorism since 1492. Columbus kidnapped 18 "indians" to bring back to Spain. When the first one died on board, they baptized him and gave a haleluia that God had met his first Indian.

The war on terror is bs
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16-Oct-2005, 10:05 PM #12
There is no clear and present danger to the US emanating from Iraq today. Whether we prevail in IRAQ or not has NO bearing on AL Qaeda's ability to mount terrorist strikes in Bali, the UK, or anywhere else, for that matter.
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16-Oct-2005, 11:17 PM #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarC
Xico, before you post articles mocking the concept of violent beliefs held in Islam, maybe you should examine the situation.

Its patently absurd to deny the fact that fundamentalist groups exist in Islam, preaching violence and using its holiest scriptures as rationalization, considering oh...The last several decades of terrorist attacks against western powers...

Allow me to name some non-existant terrorist organizations that have practiced suicide attacks or bombings against civilians or western interests, or preach religious war against foreigners and their muslim "collaborators":

Hezbollah, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), Al-Gamaat Al-Islamiyya (The Islamic Group), Al-Qaeda, Armed Islamic Group, Aden-Abyan Islamic Army, Harakat ul-Mujahidin, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba(Army of the Righteous), among others...

Source: PBS.org

Besides that, the idea of a pan-Islamic state is one trumpeted by not only Al Qaeda, but other extremist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and most Wahhabi-inspired organizations.
Gee whiz, WarC, I can post a few terrorist organizations too, like the IRS, the US Army, the CIA, the NSA, the New Orleans Police, the DEA, the Narcs in every state, city and federal nook and cranny, the Marines, the US Navy, the Air Force, Special Forces . . . lets see . . . have I forgotten any?
Then what about Britain, France, Spain, Isreal, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, China, Russia, Japan, Vietnam, and all their terrorist organizations?

I think bin Laden made it clear what he wants. The Muslims aren't here with their gunboats and their areoplanes and missiles. We are there (making the world safe for the Forbes Billionaires) and trying to rip off the resources like OIL. Our countrymen are dying and being mutilated so that Exxon-Mobile and Chevron and BP and Standard Oil can keep the oil flowing out of the Middle East. This is mob tactics. The United States of America is operating and has been operating on the same moral plane as the Mafia. If you don't sell to us, we'll blow you up! What happened to the idea of law? What happened to ethical principles? What happened to morality? Is the Bill of Rights a quaint convention, like the Geneva Conventions?

WarC, this country is in trouble . . . not only because the Prez is acting like he has an unlimited credit card (that we'll pay off later) . . . but morally. And it appears that at least one third of the country condones this outrageous behavior. The Muslims didn't start this. We did. Read The Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. And what's wrong with a pan Islamic State? We have a pan Capitalistic State and it's called the New World Order. Well, if you're pro the New World Order, then I suppose you'd be pro divide and conquer and anti anything that smacks of unity outside the New World Order.

Yes, there are a few Militant Muslim organizations, but if we weren't the major arms supplier to the world, and weren't busy training violent militants, they might not have the wherewithal to be violent. We organized them and trained them. What these pecker head subversives (the busy-body CIA) didn't know was that men are capable of thinking for themselves, and they know when they're getting screwed. We have an ideal embodied in the Bill of Rights. Let's stick to it for everyone, so that everyone will want to live by it.
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Last edited by xico : 16-Oct-2005 11:20 PM. Reason: error
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17-Oct-2005, 12:49 AM #14
Whoa.....I was going to post my opinion to this thread, but after reading some of the above posts, I have to admit that I am still quite confused by the entire ordeal. I keep in the back of my mind, that every since Dubya Bush bought his way into the White House, and immediately had Congress give him more powers than any other President has ever had, things have kinda gone downhill real fast.
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17-Oct-2005, 01:44 AM #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by donhammond72
Whoa.....I was going to post my opinion to this thread, but after reading some of the above posts, I have to admit that I am still quite confused by the entire ordeal. I keep in the back of my mind, that every since Dubya Bush bought his way into the White House, and immediately had Congress give him more powers than any other President has ever had, things have kinda gone downhill real fast.
As are many!
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