[bassetman]

Originally Posted by Mulder

I just can't help it--stupidity (or ignorance as the case may be) has a way of irking me to no end!

You must have been a mess watching the State of the Union Address!

[GoneForNow]

Originally Posted by bassetman

You must have been a mess watching the State of the Union Address!

It did but I take comfort in the knowledge that I didn't vote for any of the Democrats.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by bassetman

I guess that makes you a bad teacher eh?

No--it makes you a bad student. Validates the saying, "you can't teach and old dog new tricks!"

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by gbrumb

It did but I take comfort in the knowledge that I didn't vote for any of the Democrats.

That was great--I have to give you the rubber stamp on that one!

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by Mulder

I just can't help it--stupidity (or ignorance as the case may be) has a way of irking me to no end!

Non responsive, counsler

[f1_champ]

Originally Posted by Mulder

From the NY Times--certainly no "conservative" source!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/op...eberstadt.html



What this shows (and there is plenty of other similar data and none to refute it) is that purchasing power has increased for the poor not decreased.

Purchasing power has in creased for poor?! My foot It is practically impossible for someone not making 60k+ to own a house let alone the poor. Single mothers working on minimum wage have no way of leading a comfortable life, I live in a reletively smalll city in Canada and the cost of a single bedroom appartment is $ 800 and I'm sure that it's like 1000 in the US, even if they are not working on minimum wage and making like $1600 a month they still can't make both ends meet..... deduct the taxes.... car insurance...... medical bills.......groceries... rent .....electricity bill....cost of gas..... cost of heat etc. Prices of all these utilities have spiked up. And you say purchasing power for poor has increased

[f1_champ]

Originally Posted by Mulder

This is the same poster who claimed that conservatives control the education system in the US, so it shows how much credibility he has!

And that comes from the same guy who was blaming the democrats for the actions of a 6 yr old, that shows his credibility as well, does'nt it?

[Mulderator]

Look champ--you seem like a nice kid--intelligent beyond your years--but you are out of your league. Take a nap and eat some cheerios. You are making claims that are known in the law as "speculation"--that is you have no basis in fact to make them and in fact, they are wrong.

Originally Posted by f1_champ

Purchasing power has in creased for poor?! My foot It is practically impossible for someone not making 60k+ to own a house let alone the poor.

Maybe in socialist Canada, but not here in the states.

http://www.cato.org/special/ownership_society/boaz.html

The United States today has the most widespread property ownership in history. This year an all-time high of 68.6 percent of American households own their own homes. Even more significantly, increasing numbers of Americans are becoming capitalists—people who own a share of productive businesses through stocks or mutual funds. About half of American households qualify as stockholding in some form. That's up from 32 percent in 1989 and only 19 percent in 1983, a remarkable change in just 20 years. That means almost half of Americans directly benefited from the enormous market appreciation between 1982 and 2000 and are prepared to see their wealth increase again when the current stock market slump ends.

Originally Posted by f1_champ

Single mothers working on minimum wage have no way of leading a comfortable life, I live in a reletively smalll city in Canada and the cost of a single bedroom appartment is $ 800 and I'm sure that it's like 1000 in the US, even if they are not working on minimum wage and making like $1600 a month they still can't make both ends meet..... deduct the taxes.... car insurance...... medical bills.......groceries... rent .....electricity bill....cost of gas..... cost of heat etc. Prices of all these utilities have spiked up. And you say purchasing power for poor has increased

You live in a socialist country dominated by liberals (despite the recent election of a conservative as your PM). You are reaping the rewards of what liberals bring to an economy--stagnation and lesser opportunity for all. Move to the United States and you'll have a lot more opportunity.

[poochee]

Originally Posted by f1_champ

Purchasing power has in creased for poor?! My foot It is practically impossible for someone not making 60k+ to own a house let alone the poor. Single mothers working on minimum wage have no way of leading a comfortable life, I live in a reletively smalll city in Canada and the cost of a single bedroom appartment is $ 800 and I'm sure that it's like 1000 in the US, even if they are not working on minimum wage and making like $1600 a month they still can't make both ends meet..... deduct the taxes.... car insurance...... medical bills.......groceries... rent .....electricity bill....cost of gas..... cost of heat etc. Prices of all these utilities have spiked up. And you say purchasing power for poor has increased

Some people who don't live on minimum wage are not interested in the struggles of those who do. The argument you hear is...if you raise the minimum wage it will be passed on to the customer. Wonder why the price on food, clothing and gas, etc. keeps going up and the minimum wage still remains stagnant? It's disgusting!

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by Mulder

No--it makes you a bad student. Validates the saying, "you can't teach and old dog new tricks!"

Do you mean and do old dog tricks?

[bassetman]

Look champ--you seem like a nice kid--intelligent beyond your years--but you are out of your league. Take a nap and eat some cheerios. You are making claims that are known in the law as "speculation"--that is you have no basis in fact to make them and in fact, they are wrong.

Sounds like he copied your style!

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by gbrumb

It did but I take comfort in the knowledge that I didn't vote for any of the Democrats.

It's easier to just pull one lever vs. look at the candidates eh?

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by poochee

Some people who don't live on minimum wage are not interested in the struggles of those who do. The argument you hear is...if you raise the minimum wage it will be passed on to the customer. Wonder why the price on food, clothing and gas, etc. keeps going up and the minimum wage still remains stagnant? It's disgusting!

Sorry, but this is another emotional reaction to a liberal based argument that will actually make it worse for those on the lower end of the scale.

Instead of visualizing in your head some poor person who is starving (another myth in the US, but that's a different issue), I want you to try and think this through. First, you have to understand that a large majority of minimum wage jobs are worked by teenagers and those transititioning to something better. Very few people on minimum wage are lifers raising families.

Now, let's assume we raise it to $6.00 an hour. Most of the minimum wage jobs affect the goods and services provided to the people at the low income levels. Therefore, what happens the price of those goods and services are raised making them more expensive. But the majority of people who rely on those services being "cheap" are the poor and not those that just got the raise from the mininum wage increase--many are on fixed incomes (social security, welfare, etc.). so now, you've got teenagers with more spending money, but the people you are really trying to help now have to pay more for their goods and services.

And that's just the start of the problem. Since we compete in an international market, raising the minimum wage hurts the ability of companies to compete in foreign markets, which forces companies to take jobs outside the US.

The irony here is that you are so uninformed on this topic, and your decision making so emotionally dirven, that you are going to end up harming the people you claim to help.

Do you really think that Mulder or Gbrumb or ciberblade (the people will talk intelligently on this subject) don't want the minimum wage raised because we don't want to pay more for our goods? You think I care if I pay an extra 50 cents for my hamburger at McDonald's or my pack of underwear? Do you really believe that my view comes from the fact that I have a desire to see poor people stay poor?

I'm a capitalist--increasing the purchasing power of the poor--in fact everyone in the economy is extremely beneficial to me. If I thought for one second that raising the minimum wage would increase the purchasing power of the poor, I'd vote for it in a heartbeat--so would just about every Republican--so would Gbrumb and Ciberblade and every other person who understands this issue. The reason we don't is because we are educated and we understand the effects. You on the other hand, along with most of your liberal friends simply react emotinally--raising the minimum wage gives you instant gratification--you've done something noble and you've helped the poor.

The mininum wage argument just like the argument used to start this thread are "emotional knee jerkers." They play on the emtoions of good honest caring people such as yourself to get you to vote in a particular way (or their made by people who simply have fallen prey to the same emotional response). You need to educate yourself from all sources and learn whether or not what you propose is actually going to be a benefit or a detriment. Raising the minimum wage--invariably harms more people on the lower income level than it helps--that's an economic fact.

[Mulderator]

Pooche--will you do me a favor. Rather than get into the left-right crap or the liberal vs. conservative, read this. Its from numerous sources (inlcuidng Alan Greenspan--he is a legendary economist who is respected on both sides of the political spectrum--he is not just some ideologue). This is from bassetman's home state of Wisconsin so hopefully he educates himself as well!

Minimum Wage Increase Hurts Low-Income Families

Published In: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
By: Craig Garthwaite

5/11/05

Raising the minimum wage “destroys jobs,” and the evidence for that “is overwhelming.” The words of a business lobby? Of a self-interested corporation? No, that’s Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan speaking.

The debate over raising Wisconsin’s minimum wage has been painted as Republicans vs. Democrats, businesses vs. poor people. Politics aside, economists will tell you that a major problem with raising the minimum wage is that it has devastating consequences for the least skilled among us.

As Governor Doyle and the squabbling legislators consider the issue, they should bear in mind Chairman Greenspan’s warning that a minimum wage hike “prevents people who are at the early stages of their careers…from getting a foothold in the ladder of promotions.”

This ladder of promotions is no mere metaphor. Although wage hike proponents often argue that minimum wage employees haven’t had a raise since Congress last increased the national rate, few entering the workforce at the minimum wage stay there for long. Nearly two-thirds get a raise within 1-12 months. After improving their skills and establishing their value, these employees receive raises at a rate nearly six times larger than everyone else.

The vast majority of low-wage earners simply don’t need a mandated pay raise. They do it on their own.

That leaves us with a small group of the least skilled, who may remain at a minimum wage salary for extended periods. While mandating a wage boost for these individuals might seem like an attractive option, they are actually the people most likely to lose their jobs following a wage hike. Those most in need become the most likely to suffer.

Duke University researchers have found that after an increase in the minimum wage, the lowest skilled adults are crowded out of their jobs as better-educated teenagers (frequently from wealthier families) are drawn into the workforce. Their “need”? Simply to earn money for video games and iPods. But because they require less training, employers eagerly hire these higher-skilled teenagers to get the most out of their higher payroll costs.

Because of disparities in education, job losses often exact a crippling toll on minority communities. Cornell University researchers have determined that after a minimum wage hike, young African-Americans bear four times the employment loss of non-blacks.

In the years following World War II, the unemployment rate for young black males averaged lower than their white counterparts’. But in 1956, a 33% increase in the minimum wage precipitated an alarming turnaround. By 1960, unemployment for young black males had nearly doubled to 22.7% while increasing only slightly for young whites. By 1981, nearly annual minimum wage increases had greatly contributed to their 40.7% unemployment rate.

Artificially high wage mandates continue to price many less-educated African-Americans out of the labor market. Today, the unemployment rate for young blacks is 125% higher than for white youth. Nobel laureate economist Milton Friedman rightly notes that joblessness among so many young blacks “is both a scandal and a serious source of social unrest. Yet it is largely a result of minimum wage laws.”

Proponents of minimum wage increases typically frame their efforts as a way to rescue society’s most economically vulnerable—seniors trying to supplement their Social Security checks or single parents struggling to raise their children. But in Wisconsin, individuals earning $7 an hour or less have an average family income of nearly $58,000.Even former Clinton Labor Secretary Robert Reich observed that “most minimum wage earners aren’t poor.”

If that seems implausible, consider that just 6% of these individuals are sole earners with children. A Cornell University study found only 15% of prospective wage hike beneficiaries across the nation are in poor families. Poverty is becoming a phenomenon confined largely to nonworkers. None of them will benefit from a minimum wage increase.

But they will be hurt by a minimum wage increase. A University of Wisconsin study revealed that welfare mothers in states which raised their minimum wage remained on public assistance 44 percent longer than those in states where the minimum wage was not raised.

Moreover, businesses with many low-wage employees frequently increase their prices after a minimum wage hike. Researchers from Stanford University have found that these price increases disproportionately effect the poor. In fact, they are more regressive than the sales tax, which is notorious for imposing a greater burden on low-income families.

Those with the least skills won’t benefit from a minimum wage increase if they’re shut out of the workforce. Instead of pushing for a minimum wage hike, Wisconsin legislators should be forging policies to help the needy without costing them their jobs.

Please poochee--and all you other liberals out there--do your homework--research yourself (discount stuff from the typical right/left stuff).

Honestly--I'm a capitalist--I AM NOT HEARTLESS. If I thought raising the minimum wage would benefit the poor, I WOULD BE ALL FOR IT!

[Mulderator]

By the way--vritually every study ever done on minimum wage comes to generally the same conclusions. Here are leading studies on it:

The minimum wage reduces employment.

Currie and Fallick (1993), Gallasch (1975), Gardner (1981), Peterson (1957), Peterson and Stewart (1969).

The minimum wage reduces employment more among teenagers than adults.

Adie (1973); Brown, Gilroy and Kohen (1981a, 1981b); Fleisher (1981); Hammermesh (1982); Meyer and Wise (1981, 1983a); Minimum Wage Study Commission (1981); Neumark and Wascher (1992); Ragan (1977); Vandenbrink (1987); Welch (1974, 1978); Welch and Cunningham (1978).

The minimum wage reduces employment most among black teenage males.

Al-Salam, Quester, and Welch (1981), Iden (1980), Mincer (1976), Moore (1971), Ragan (1977), Williams (1977a, 1977b).

The minimum wage helped South African whites at the expense of blacks.

Bauer (1959).

The minimum wage hurts blacks generally.

Behrman, Sickles and Taubman (1983); Linneman (1982).

The minimum wage hurts the unskilled.

Krumm (1981).

The minimum wage hurts low wage workers.

Brozen (1962), Cox and Oaxaca (1986), Gordon (1981).

The minimum wage hurts low wage workers particularly during cyclical downturns.

Kosters and Welch (1972), Welch (1974).

The minimum wage increases job turnover.

Hall (1982).

The minimum wage reduces average earnings of young workers.

Meyer and Wise (1983b).

The minimum wage drives workers into uncovered jobs, thus lowering wages in those sectors.

Brozen (1962), Tauchen (1981), Welch (1974).

The minimum wage reduces employment in low-wage industries, such as retailing.

Cotterman (1981), Douty (1960), Fleisher (1981), Hammermesh (1981), Peterson (1981).

The minimum wage hurts small businesses generally.

Kaun (1965).

The minimum wage causes employers to cut back on training.

Hashimoto (1981, 1982), Leighton and Mincer (1981), Ragan (1981).

The minimum wage has long-term effects on skills and lifetime earnings.

Brozen (1969), Feldstein (1973).

The minimum wage leads employers to cut back on fringe benefits.

McKenzie (1980), Wessels (1980).

The minimum wage encourages employers to install labor-saving devices.

Trapani and Moroney (1981).

The minimum wage hurts low-wage regions, such as the South and rural areas.

Colberg (1960, 1981), Krumm (1981).

The minimum wage increases the number of people on welfare.

Brandon (1995), Leffler (1978).

The minimum wage hurts the poor generally.

Stigler (1946).

The minimum wage does little to reduce poverty.

Bonilla (1992), Brown (1988), Johnson and Browning (1983), Kohen and Gilroy (1981), Parsons (1980), Smith and Vavrichek (1987).

The minimum wage helps upper income families.

Bell (1981), Datcher and Loury (1981), Johnson and Browning (1981), Kohen and Gilroy (1981).

The minimum wage helps unions.

Linneman (1982), Cox and Oaxaca (1982).
The minimum wage lowers the capital stock.

McCulloch (1981).

The minimum wage increases inflationary pressure.

Adams (1987), Brozen (1966), Gramlich (1976), Grossman (1983).

The minimum wage increases teenage crime rates.

Hashimoto (1987), Phillips (1981).

The minimum wage encourages employers to hire illegal aliens.

Beranek (1982).

Few workers are permanently stuck at the minimum wage.

Brozen (1969), Smith and Vavrichek (1992).

The minimum wage has had a massive impact on unemployment in Puerto Rico.

Freeman and Freeman (1991), Rottenberg (1981b).

The minimum wage has reduced employment in foreign countries.

Canada: Forrest (1982); Chile: Corbo (1981); Costa Rica: Gregory (1981); France: Rosa (1981).

Characteristics of minimum wage workers

Employment Policies Institute (1994), Haugen and Mellor (1990), Kniesner (1981), Mellor (1987), Mellor and Haugen (1986), Smith and Vavrichek (1987), Van Giezen (1994).

No links--but you can just google the stuff. These are by economists and come from both sides of the aisle--not just right wing propoganda.