[steppenwolf]

i wonder how many muslims know about this and american bigots?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Article 11

The Treaty is notable for Article 11, from Joel Barlow's English translation, which reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Article 11 has been a point of contention regarding the proper interpretation of the doctrine of separation of church and state. It is generally considered as confirmation that the government of the United States was specifically intended to be religiously neutral. The United States Constitution specifically states that treaties with foreign powers have the force of law.

In 1930, it was discovered that the existent original Arabic version of Article was gibberish and that the original Article 11 was not an article at all, but a letter from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. Nevertheless, Joel Barlow's Englis

[LANMaster]

Americans also owned slaves at the time. Get over it. We have.

[WarC]

It would do you well to read about the history of that conflict, steppenwolf.

It might do something to cure some of that "Death to America" syndrome you have.

[linskyjack]

Some Americans owned slaves--the vast majority were true Christians and didn't.

[linskyjack]

In 1796, this treaty was unanimously approved in the Senate, by many men who played a role in our revolution. This treaty was signed by John Adam, and it states very clearly that their is a seperation of church and state. The truth is evident---This country was not founded on the Christian religion. Keep religion out of our politics and our political instiutions.

[steppenwolf]

Originally Posted by WarC

It would do you well to read about the history of that conflict, steppenwolf.

It might do something to cure some of that "Death to America" syndrome you have.

i dont have any "death to american syndrome"

people like me want to revive america to what it once was and if you think its like it was youre wrong

like the constitution was written on hemp

what ideas do you have? you probably like bush and war mongers who leveled half of iraq and for what? were sick of it

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Some Americans owned slaves--the vast majority were true Christians and didn't.

Agreed.

[steppenwolf]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Agreed.

oh get off it

im cherokee and indians owned slaves,salish indians in washinton sate made their enemies slaves up till 1820 probably

blacks owned slaves in africa and still do

ameroican made slaves out of the aliet indians i saw on pbs last night around 1940

every white slave owner wasnt a beast

jefferson davis had a slave pemberton and he was like his best friend who saved his life

all slave owners werent brutal

america makes people slaves in 2006 and keeps them in the miltary for a senseless war

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by steppenwolf

oh get off it

im cherokee and indians owned slaves,salish indians in washinton sate made their enemies slaves up till 1820 probably

blacks owned slaves in africa and still do

ameroican made slaves out of the aliet indians i saw on pbs last night around 1940

every white slave owner wasnt a beast

jefferson davis had a slave pemberton and he was like his best friend who saved his life

all slave owners werent brutal

america makes people slaves in 2006 and keeps them in the miltary for a senseless war

Then why are you ranting about a treaty over 200 years old?

[WarC]

Originally Posted by steppenwolf

i dont have any "death to american syndrome"

people like me want to revive america to what it once was and if you think its like it was youre wrong

like the constitution was written on hemp

what ideas do you have? you probably like bush and war mongers who leveled half of iraq and for what? were sick of it

How America once was? Like in 1796, when we went to war with Tripoli and the Barbary pirate states to end their piracy, bribing, extortion and exploitation of overseas trade?!?!

You see, "people like me" see the war in Iraq as a continuation of that history...Struggles and sacrifices to better the condition of men and women both here and abroad. A republic in the Middle East and strengthened ties with an oil producing nation are convenient bonuses to ridding the world of another bad apple.

"People like you" believe in and defend Saddam Hussein's genocidal dictatorship for the sake of fulfilling your own perception of the Evil American Government. I can recall your post claiming Saddam's crimes never happened.

Therefore, you do suffer from "Death to America" syndrome.

I have my complaints about this government. I wish the herb was legalized...I toke up a bowl or three every day, to be honest with you. Heck, I curse under my breath at the cops when I get pulled over and I am pissed off about some of the regulations and laws that seemly keep piling on us. The difference is I can seperate the good and the bad (Like the fact that demonization of marijuana is a nationwide sympton, not just our government putting us down). I still respect, love, and defend my country in its vital pursuits...When the whole world is watching and perception and execution are everything. I still believe American foreign policy is generous and moralistic in its expression when compared to any given country at any given time in history.

Put away your brush, my friend: A rightwing warmonger I am not...A critical thinker I try to be.

[linskyjack]

First of all, true Americans can't pick and chose what laws they obey so please, stop buying a controled substance---you are merely feeding the drug business which is killing many of your fellow Americans. As far as the Treaty of Tripoli goes, it has nothing to with anything but the fact that American shipping was being attacked (unaware that Hussein was attacking our shipping). The beauty of the Treaty is that Adams and the signatories made it clear that they hold no dislike of anyones religion--in fact that America is not a Christian state. As I said before, the entire Senate signed it, and those fellows were a lot closer to the Founding Fathers millieu then George Bush.

[WarC]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

First of all, true Americans can't pick and chose what laws they obey so please, stop buying a controled substance---you are merely feeding the drug business which is killing many of your fellow Americans. As far as the Treaty of Tripoli goes, it has nothing to with anything but the fact that American shipping was being attacked (unaware that Hussein was attacking our shipping). The beauty of the Treaty is that Adams and the signatories made it clear that they hold no dislike of anyones religion--in fact that America is not a Christian state. As I said before, the entire Senate signed it, and those fellows were a lot closer to the Founding Fathers millieu then George Bush.

Yeah right!

I better tell that guy that grows in his basement a few blocks away that his plants are supporting terrorism! (Maybe he sends his profit to Al Qaeda?)

Anyways, I was pointing out to Steppenwolf that the America today is not as different from the America he holds in his head as the "true" America. The conflict we had with the Barbary pirates occured in our infancy as a country: And its foreign policy was not unlike our foreign policy today. The major difference is we were just another kid on the block in the 1700's...Today, we are the top dog and under much more scrutiny.

[WarC]

Iraq never took over any of our shipping...They just planned to assassinate one of our presidents, shot at our planes, fought us in two wars, waged chemical warfare on Iran and its own people, and led the UN on a twelve resolution, decade-long wild goose chase inorder to protect the Baathist ruling class that brutalized its own citizenry!

[linskyjack]

First of all, the planned assassination of George Bush Senior is debatable and by the way, it was interesting that old man Bush didn't launch a war as a result--wonder why? As far as shooting at our planes, we shot back. As far as fighting us in two wars---the first war had some grounding in international law and a huge coalition who agreed with it The second was a fake war concocted by neo-cons. As far as Iran goes, I could give a damn what Iraq and Iran do to each other----As far as the Baathist ruling class goes---they brutalized their own citizenary in order to maintain order in a country that really is the artifical creation of colonial powers that doesn't take into account the cultural, religious and ethnic differences amond the so-called Iraqi people. I think what is going on there pretty much proves that.

[plschwartz]

Originally Posted by WarC

Iraq never took over any of our shipping...They just planned to assassinate one of our presidents, shot at our planes, fought us in two wars, waged chemical warfare on Iran and its own people, and led the UN on a twelve resolution, decade-long wild goose chase inorder to protect the Baathist ruling class that brutalized its own citizenry!

WC I am disappointed. I know you can when pushed, think.
1. Have you ever stopped to think why Saddam wanted to kill Bush41? Who by then was out of power? Ever since Rummy's famous trip which established the "tilt toward Baghdad" (which led to us helping him produce poison gas ) Saddam had reason to feel that a de facto alliance existed twixt him and us. Although I assume Bush 43 has destroyed all the relevent documents in the US and in Iraq, there seems to have b

een some "understanding" that Saddam would profit from defeating Iran. And when asked about invading Kuwait Bush gave Saddam enough rope and then neutralized him. I believe that qualifies under the definition of a Double-Cross

2. Gassing the Kurds
Human Rights Watch has a detailed article about the Kurds, Iran and Saddam.
At least one of the Kurdish factions was in an outright alliance with Iran. So at that point were the Kurds "his own people" or as we like to say now "enemy combatants?"

Perhaps you can construct a rational asto why we have any moral highground on gassing when we provided gas for use against one Iraqi enemy Iran and Ali used it against another enemy Kurds. The use of gas against the Kurds by Saddam was open knowledge. Did Bush 41 object ???? Or was it conviently unearthed when needed to stir us up for the invasion.

The planes he shot at happened to be flying over his territory.
If theUN declared a "no-fly zone" over the US patrolled by Cuban planes do you think we would not shoot at then.

Finally I think that Saddam flummoxing the West with his non-existant WMD was easily the equal in deception as any we used against Germany. He got us to establish his possesion of them thereby keeping his enemies interal and external at bay. I can see him laughing at us so hard he wet his pants when Powell presented his "evidence" at the UN

I do not approve of Saddam and his methods. But little that was said about him by Bu****es held much water. And to judge him by our standards of today and forget how brutal we have been during our history is simply two-faced.

Notes taken by Cambone recently released show that from 9/12 Rummy wanted to get Saddam. So they filled a pond with pig waste and then breeched the levee. This allowed a river of waste to roll from the whitehouse to the Capital, and then across the country.
Isn't about time you took a shower or do you cherish that smell