[Fidelista]

UNIFIL suggests force against Israel
THE commander of UN troops in Lebanon overnight suggested that the rules of engagement for his forces might have to be changed to allow future use of force to stop continuing Israeli air violations of Lebanese air space.

General Alain Pellegrini, commander of the UNIFIL force in Lebanon, told a press briefing here that currently the UN was relying on diplomacy to try to end the violations.

"If the diplomatic means should not be enough, maybe it could be considered other ways," he said, referring to the possible use of anti-aircraft missiles equipping French forces in Lebanon.
http://www.news.com.au/sundayheralds...005961,00.html
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Israel: Flights over Lebanon to continue
JERUSALEM - Israel's defense minister said Sunday that air force flights over Lebanon would continue because arms smuggling to Lebanese guerrillas has not stopped.

Peretz spoke after the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon termed the overflights a clear violation of the U.N. cease-fire resolution.
The Aug. 14 cease-fire calls on both sides to respect the U.N. boundary drawn in 2000 after Israel ended its 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon.

Israel says it has no choice but to conduct flights across that line because arms continue to flow to Hezbollah and because of the guerrilla group's continued armed presence in southern Lebanon. Under the resolution, the region must become a weapons-free zone.

Up to 15,000 Lebanese army troops and an equal number of U.N. troops have been assigned to patrol southern Lebanon. Last week, Maj. Gen. Alain Pellegrini, leader of the U.N. peacekeeping force, criticized Israel for sending its jets over the area.

Peretz said the U.N. force was "designed to operate against Hezbollah, not Israel"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061022/...israel_lebanon
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Here we go again.
This makes me wonder if the UN militay force is capable of enforceing the the resolution.
15,000 thousand UN troops and still weapons movements and cross border overflights?.
Its too soon to see what weapons smuggling was actually going on, but if it was offensive weapons --missles capable of striking Israel , the UN has some answering to do, and Israel will have excuse to violate Lebenese airspace. If it was Toyotas full of AK's , it will just be a provocation by Israel. We will never stop all small arms trade.
Maybe more troops are needed , and some strong military action--they were sent there to enforce the resolution now is time to do it forcably.
If they need aircraft to observe, we should ante up, supply them. We don't need the Israeli Airforce violating airspace--defeats the whole purpose and is ,as they say , "a clear violation". Others {the UN} can perform that duty legally.
I would like to see the UN enforce the resolution with military means --harshly deal with Hezbollah arms shipments . No mercy for violations.
I would also have enough aircraft to watch movements , enforce cross-border violations and stop as much smuggling as possible, esp missles.
Southern Lebanon , its airspace should be contolled airspace.
Israeli aircraft should be shot from sky if they don't cease immediately.
One disturbing thing is that the Israeli views the UN force as there to enforce ONLY against Hezbollah >>>>
"Peretz said the U.N. force was "designed to operate against Hezbollah, not Israel.".
Maybe he would like the UN force to be under IDF command?. Would not supprise me.
Anyway , thats not the way the UN commanders see it.
The UN force has arms and should have airpower , time to use force , or get out.

>f

[linskyjack]

Small arms trade? You call rockets small arms? Of course you want to shoot "Israel aircraft" from the sky because you have such confidence in INFILS fairness and their ability to actually enforce the treaty! Essentially what you are calling for is for Israel to allow shippments (and these are not allowed) of what you call small arms into Lebanon. Then again, you have always sided with the Hezbollah and the Hamas on these issues. If its anti-American or anti-Israel, its your cup of tea!

[GoneForNow]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Small arms trade? You call rockets small arms? Of course you want to shoot "Israel aircraft" from the sky because you have such confidence in INFILS fairness and their ability to actually enforce the treaty! Essentially what you are calling for is for Israel to allow shippments (and these are not allowed) of what you call small arms into Lebanon. Then again, you have always sided with the Hezbollah and the Hamas on these issues. If its anti-American or anti-Israel, its your cup of tea!

See Fidelista I told you that you are an Anti-American Cuba loving red communist union organizing Latino Harley gun owning scoundrel. Linsky said so.

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Small arms trade? You call rockets small arms? Of course you want to shoot "Israel aircraft" from the sky because you have such confidence in INFILS fairness and their ability to actually enforce the treaty! Essentially what you are calling for is for Israel to allow shippments (and these are not allowed) of what you call small arms into Lebanon. Then again, you have always sided with the Hezbollah and the Hamas on these issues. If its anti-American or anti-Israel, its your cup of tea!

"I would like to see the UN enforce the resolution with military means --harshly deal with Hezbollah arms shipments . No mercy for violations" . linsky , what part of this statement did you not understand?.
I honestly believe you are too zealous in support of Israel to even make a rational judgement. Its been obvious to me all along. You must not have noticed that my support of military action cuts both ways--Hezbollah should not be favored or spared from violent action.
Do I trust the UN commander? , I would trust neutral Euro Commanders before the combatants who have already shown the world they can't stop provocations or live with commitments.
Hell, thats why they {the UN} are there!. If they have to turn blind eye to violations, either Israeli or Lebanese --may as well go home. What would you suggest?.
I maintain that the UN force be equipped to do the job --and do it, why else would they be there? If this is not done , they will accomplish nothing.
They need to be reinforced -- only approx 7500 on the ground, need to double that , and equipped to destroy any threat posed to them , as well as enforce the resolution militarly.
As far as weapons smuggling --read my post. Not all small arms smuggling or smuggling of any sort , can be completey eliminated , and you know it. That fact doesn't mean I am calling for Israels support of arms shipments . They should be stopped with violent means. You are simply getting carried away with yourself
What my greatest concern is -- missles or "rockets" able to strike targets in Israel --offensive weapons. That should be first priorty to UN forces. The should have all the equipment and support to accomplish that mission. AK's and RPG's ect, are not foremost on the agenda , although that should be stopped also. They are a threat to UN -- and Lebanese Govt forces as well. Really , any threat or violation should be met with military force, including the Israeli. Talking seems to accomplish little.
I am not "pro - Hezbollah" or "anti-American" as you say, never have been anything of the sort.
I said in my post that if UN has allowed offensive missles that threaten Israel to be shipped , Israel has legit exuse for violation. How does that not make sense to you?.
I try to look at the miserable situation over there in a balanced way, as best I can.
That is something you are incapable of doing--absoulutly incapable.
You are so pro-Israeli/Zionist , it clouds your judgement.
I admit , you have extensive knowledge of the region , better than I , and I agree with you many times, but when it comes to your sacred cow , you lose all balance , reasoning , and go to attack.
I have always wondered why the abnormal zeal ?. >f

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by gbrumb

See Fidelista I told you that you are an Anti-American Cuba loving red communist union organizing Latino Harley gun owning scoundrel. Linsky said so.

Who cares what linsky thinks on this subject Monkeyboy, his reponsce is totally predictable --blanket defense of anything Israeli. He is unable to see things any other way.
He is chief of the Israel lobby around here !
And know this whiteboy, your post was half right !
>f

[linskyjack]

Did you call the lawyer a "monkey boy"----? By the way, can you give us one instance where UNFIL has accomplished its mission? Do you think they did a good job before the Hezbollah attacks on Israel? Why should Israel trust UNFIL----As far as me being a Zionist etc---totally ridiculous. I merely respond to the fringe left's desire to destroy a soverign state. Not to complex.

You seem to think that rockets are small arms---tell that to Israelis who are killed by them from distances of up to 80 miles! When is the last time you started a post against Palestenian terrorism?

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Did you call the lawyer a "monkey boy"----? By the way, can you give us one instance where UNFIL has accomplished its mission? Do you think they did a good job before the Hezbollah attacks on Israel? Why should Israel trust UNFIL----As far as me being a Zionist etc---totally ridiculous. I merely respond to the fringe left's desire to destroy a soverign state. Not to complex.

You seem to think that rockets are small arms---tell that to Israelis who are killed by them from distances of up to 80 miles! When is the last time you started a post against Palestenian terrorism?

I want UNFIL to accomplish their mission , which is to protect Israel from attack , and Lebanon from invasion and more destruction. That is why they are there.
If they don't back up mission with action , they will fail . Any violation should have military solution --response. This mission deserves support I believe.
I don't want to think that you want them to fail ?.
Perhaps I should clear up the language problem regarding weapons , any "rocket" with 80 mi range is a offensive weapon , and as I said , should be first priority of UN forces to eliminate. They are a threat to Israel -- without question.
Some call RPG-7 rounds "rockets" , but man portable weapons are mostly defensive in nature { a few hundred yards range} and barring entry into Israel -- offensive operations---pose little threat to Israel. Small arms smuggling such as that , is very hard to control completely.
linsky , there are only 2 options .
Give the mission a chance , all the ability, support possible or...... wish them to fail.
I wish success for this mission.
Keep in mind , Israel was a party to this ceasefire agreement --time to live by it.
If Hezbollah is proven to have imported missles "rockets " capable of striking Israel --in violation of resolution-- and UN has ignored --you will hear no condemnation of overflights from me.
>f

[Fidelista]

[quote=linskyjack]Did you call the lawyer a "monkey boy"----? QUOTE]
Of course! .I think its his Christian name and........ he anwsers to it! >f

[Fidelista]

Israel jets fly over Lebanon despite French appeal

REUTERS

3:21 a.m. October 23, 2006

BEIRUT – Israeli warplanes swooped low over Lebanon on Monday, a day after the Jewish state rejected a call by France's defence minister to halt violations of its neighbour's airspace.
The planes conducted mock raids over much of southern Lebanon and residents saw them flying low over the capital Beirut, but neither Hezbollah guerrillas nor the Lebanese army fired anti-aircraft rounds at them as they have done in previous years.
Israeli jets have routinely flown over Lebanon since a 34-day war between Israel and Hezbollah ended on Aug. 14 with a U.N.-sponsored truce and the expansion of a U.N. peacekeeping force, including a French contingent, in southern Lebanon.
The Lebanese government and the United Nations say the overflights, which Israel had continued to conduct after it ended its 22-year occupation of south Lebanon in 2000, violate both the latest truce and the terms of Israel's earlier pullout.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/w...erflights.html
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Still no weapons found , or at least Israel claims to have seen none.
If Israel is serious about having legit overflights for security , why not ask for them? --the Western Air Forces are capable , and the U.S. cannot refuse anything ask for.
Honest Question-- does this sound like search for rockets, threats to Israel , or does it sound like provocation?? >>>> "
The planes conducted mock raids over much of southern Lebanon and residents saw them flying low over the capital Beirut" <<<<< ?.
Bottom line is this , if the UN cannot keep Hezbollah from attacking from Lebanon {cross border} , or can't keep the Israelis out of Lebanon, or over it ---the whole mission is a waste of time .
So far , Hezbollah has been kept in check in spite of fact that the UN force strength is not complete. Good so far.
The Israeli violations of airpace and buzzing the capitol with warplanes sounds to me like they have no intention of honouring the soveriegnty of Lebanon.--regardless of agreements , or the UN.
If the UN forces have to deal with IAF warplanes overhead , its time to pack gear and go home, hell with them. Might be a good idea anyway as no one seems interested in the effort. >f

[linskyjack]

Soverinegnty of Lebanon--now thats an oxymoron. What soverigen state has two armies? What soverign state doesn't have control over its own borders? If you travel to Hezbollahland (my name for southern Lebanon) you have to register at the Hezbollah internal affairs department! Again, the UN is a useless organization, and there is no doubt in my mind that Hezbollah is rearming. At this point, there is no violence, and thats the best you are going to get from Hezbollah and Israel.

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

At this point, there is no violence, and thats the best you are going to get from Hezbollah and Israel.

You may be right. I do however always hope that with Innternational force , maybe the idiots will stop. Probably optimistic.
It effects the whole world ---like a sore, and should be fixed , or isolated.
Only two ways, stop them , or isolate them---let them do what it is they need to ,without the west getting involved in the crime. Wash hands and conscience.
I just grieve for the Arabs and Israelis who are unwilling victims , and not all deserve it. >f

[lighthouse]

Constantly referring to some exclusive US-Israeli only alliance is something of a misnomer in terms of actual and perceived allegiences. What it has established in the Global mindset is something of a cliche - and one that plays to the agenda of many a conspiracy theorist.True, a large part of the original funding for the establishment of the Israeli state was provided by the very sucessful Jewish community in the USA, but the Israeli - or Jewish - question isn't just about influence - real or perceived - of the Greenback.

When concidering the Jewish peoples it is very important to remember that they have connections rather more widespread than those on the other side of the Atlantic - and not just with the wealth that that might afford. They have - or at least had - communities in the very remote areas of Russia, Belorus and the Ukraine along with bretheren in the cities of eastern and central Europe who might not necessarily have shared similar economic fortunes to jews in the US. Not all of the 3 million polish jews killed in the holocaust were wealthy Warsawites or residents of what was once the epicentre of Polish Jewry - Krakow.

Despite this there is a continuing perception that a tryst exists between the US and Israel vis-a-vis the finance system - which, although a very secure relationship exists, this most certainly isn't the entire story of global Judiasm. The Russian brigade of the IDF is an example of a wider process at work and you will meet jewish people who'll speak a multitude of different languages as well as English, Amerenglish, Yiddish and Hebrew. When you remember this - and realise what life must have been like for the ancestors of these people either during the expulsions by Catholicised western Europe, the pogroms of the 18th/19th centuries in eastern Europe, or during the excesses of the 3rd Reich - you begin to understand the defensive nature of the modern jewish psyche.

Earlier peoples might either have been jewish and living in an Axis country - which meant certain death unless they fled - or one living in the occupied territories who to a greater or lesser extent endured anti-semitism before the war, and then experienced the fracture in their non-jewish contemporaries as the Reich forced a choice on them to either resist or assist in your peoples destruction. There were many instances of where peoples did everything they could to protect their countries Jewish populations but some were bouyed by the presence of German military power and began enacting their own anti-semitic agenda. The most obvious stooge in this were the Ustasche in Yugoslavia but of course they were famously resisted by the Chetnik Partisans of fellow Croat Josip Broz Tito and this latter example emphasises my point. There are many other examples of this happening and also where peoples joined up with the Axis believing it to be a foil to "(Judiac)Bolshevism" (re; Vlasovites etc) - although none with the clearly defined story of what happened in Yugoslavia - and it was with this in mind that I began developing my position on the subject.

You begin to see that Israel is very much more than just an ally of the US - who because of the Cold war - saw Judiasm itself become fractured in the Post-war Political climate and subsequently a climate of incommunicado based on geography developed. Now the Cold war no longer exists you might well begin to see a re-racinisation after the Political and economic division of 40 years. The Balkan/Judiac cross-referencing in music for example exiled and estranged predominantly in the USA can now freely travel and communicate with its homelands of Romania, Bulgaria, former Yugoslavia and Moldova. The same process happens with what remains of the Jewish communities of Poland, Hungary and the countries of the former Soviet Union. The paradox here of course being how the ideology of the liberating Red Army - Bolshevism...........or more accurately Stalinism - (after defeating the Reich) isolated the Slavic region from the rest of the developed world with his interpretation of Communism, and the region wasn't reunited with the rest of the developed world until the collapse of the ideology in 1989.

All of this presents very solid arguements for the existance of a Jewish state immune from the transigencies of Politics, Economics, and even regional Religious developments that might affect the rest of the world. Many might see this as a rather Zionist arguement but whether it is or isn't it's a very moral one whose humanness transcends Politics and Economics because of its very painful historical enormity. This is why you will always find Capitalist AND Socialist supporters of Israel (and I guess I'm one of the latter) because of that moral transcendance. The interesting comparision with the cold war ramifications on the Israeli or Judiac position in this context can be drawn with how the Red army personel who met up with GIs on the Elbe in 1945 were later silenced about their experiences by the Kremlin despite the obvious rightness and vindication of the encounter.

Israels presence is one that can not be affected by such phenomena and because of this is an implacably humanistic symbol over the worst hostility anyone can have towards a people. A continuing living monument to the defeat of fascist genocidal regimes. It's something any oppressed people (Ethnic, Cultural, Economic, or Religious) should look to for inspiration - rather than contempt - and a premise the Israelis themselves should never lose sight of. If the world begins to forget this then that symbolism is compromised and the process that led to WW2 begins to re-assert itself. It's funny really, because when I play Klez on the Guitar I get a sense of liberation from that process - defiance even - becasue of all the afforementioned connotations. (laughs) Does this make Klezmer the new musical resistance?

Perhaps it's because of this that the original Israeli constitution offered equal rights to anyone living there - Jewish, Palestinian, Christian, Atheist, anyone. Mindful of their own painful history the founders of Israel set out to ensure that there would be no exclusion based on anything. The problem here is that there were those who didn't welcome the newly established country and took it on themselves to destroy it - most of it from non-Palestinian countries like Egypt or Syria. This meant the concurrent development of internal combattants like the PLO, a deterioration of relations between Israelis and Palestinians and an environment where the commitment to equality has diminished in the continuing climate. Now potential co-existance with Palestinians has been replaced by an atmosphere of attack, counter-attack, response and retaliation, the emergence of hardline organisations like Hamas and a mutually hostile relationship. Because of this Israelis now see any action against Palestinians as self defence and the 1967 occupation of the Golan Heights as strategically defensive against potential attack by Syria. What many forget is that no war would exist at all were it not for original Arab hostility to the countries existance in the late 1940s and everything that has happened since is attributable to what was happening then. It's ironic that the very people worst affected by all of this - the Palestinians - were probably granted more rights in 1948 Israel than they have in some of the countries in enmity against it.

Hope this helps explain my ethical standpoint!