[valley]

Shamou's thread got my little gears going (thanks Ray!) about how feminism has changed women since it first sprouted in in the 60's.

First of all...everyone needs to know that I do NOT support the oppression of women in the work force, political arena or on the home front.

That being said, I believe that the feminist movement has really hurt society as a whole.

Would like to hear some opinions about the feminist movement by both sexes.

Ladies? What are the pros and cons of feminism?

Men? Same question to you.

[Gabriel]

This is a great subject Val...I have opinions on both sides...Good and not so good...I will reflect on them for a while before I answer.

[valley]

Originally Posted by Gabriel

This is a great subject Val...I have opinions on both sides...Good and not so good...I will reflect on them for a while before I answer.

good idea, Gabriel. I look forward to your reply. I dont dare blurt my opinions out at this point. I will take in some of the reactions before going "full-steam ahead" this time. I want to make sure I have the proper attitude to reply to those who are serious in their replies.

(gonna be snotty to the non-serious posters, of course! )

[poochee]

If you call expecting and demanding the same pay for the same job I am a Feminist.

If you call abusing your body and soul by having affairs like many men do, I am not a Feminist.

If you don't stand up for your rights, you won't get them.

[poochee]

Originally Posted by valley

good idea, Gabriel. I look forward to your reply. I dont dare blurt my opinions out at this point. I will take in some of the reactions before going "full-steam ahead" this time. I want to make sure I have the proper attitude to reply to those who are serious in their replies.

(gonna be snotty to the non-serious posters, of course! )

I can "feel your pain"!

[iltos]

the end of my "coming of age" years where during the birth of "woman's liberation".....being that age, of course, my focus was on the sexual liberation part...something that was talked about in feminist circles as being profound for both sexes....but as a guy in my late teens/early twenties....the only really profound change i noticed was in the way woman viewed themselves, their sexuality, and their bodies.

and it was great ...tho for deeper reasons than the obvious nudge-nudge part.

now that i'm older, with a 15 year old daughter, i feel my mind wanting to clamp shut on that part of "feminism"....but not really

what DOES disturb me is that "sexual freedom", one of the initiators of feminism, has continued its slide into younger and younger age groups....theoretically, the only end to the slide would be puberty, i suppose.

and this has brought with it outcrys of moral degredation and the push for family values....some of it just overreaction, in my view...an attempt to return to the "idyllic" pre feminist times, when roles were clearly defined, and parenting had a far more structured meaning, and traditional moral principles were more widely accepted as the standard operating system.

feminism questioned all of it, and continues to do so...and as you've pointed out, valley, some of the questions are good ones...equal pay and opprotunity for those women who desire to enter the work force....the admirable demand by woman to be able to speak about anything, anytime....the recognition of women as beings separate from the marriage unit, in terms of credit and other forms of self sufficency essential to freedom in this country.

all of it, the good and the bad, has made our society more "provocative"....something which only increases dissention and turmoil....and this dissention and turmoil, in my view, is a reflection of the fact that, somewhere within us, we the people just don't like all these changes....they create new unknowns and demand new rules....they require that we face our children and our spouses and our bosses in ways that we are not used to....

[valley]

Originally Posted by poochee

If you call expecting and demanding the same pay for the same job I am a Feminist.

If you call abusing your body and soul by having affairs like many men do, I am not a Feminist.

If you don't stand up for your rights, you won't get them.

greats pros and cons, Pooch. Thanks

[Guyzer]

Originally Posted by poochee

If you call expecting and demanding the same pay for the same job I am a Feminist.

Providing the end results are the same there shouldn't be a problem. If a woman or man get a job due to filling a quota that's a problem.

Originally Posted by poochee

If you call abusing your body and soul by having affairs like many men do, I am not a Feminist.

You must really be a man hater poochee. What about all the women that have affairs? Lets not just single men out here.

[valley]

Originally Posted by iltos

now that i'm older, with a 15 year old daughter, i feel my mind wanting to clamp shut on that part of "feminism"....but not really

May I ask for a clearer explanation? Which portion of feminism do you agree with?

what DOES disturb me is that "sexual freedom", one of the initiators of feminism, has continued its slide into younger and younger age groups....theoretically, the only end to the slide would be puberty, i suppose.

agreed...this is why there is so much marketing towards pre-teens (and younger!) right now. Its heavily influenced by the feminist agenda, imo.

and this has brought with it outcrys of moral degredation and the push for family values....some of it just overreaction, in my view...an attempt to return to the "idyllic" pre feminist times, when roles were clearly defined, and parenting had a far more structured meaning, and traditional moral principles were more widely accepted as the standard operating system.

true. We will never go back to that...and i'm glad because there was a lot of ignorance and paranoia over certain subjects back then.

feminism questioned all of it, and continues to do so......the recognition of women as beings separate from the marriage unit

ah, there's a point of contention for me. The feminist movement not only recognizes women as separate from the marriage unit, but it portrays them as victims. It takes a dim view of women who by their own choice, want to be stay at home moms. They push the idea that a woman isnt a "real" woman unless she has it all...and claims that she can have it all without sacrificing a thing, which is false, imo.

I think its a dangerous illusion to present to young women.

[poochee]

Originally Posted by Wimpy369

Providing the end results are the same there shouldn't be a problem. If a woman or man get a job due to filling a quota that's a problem.

You must really be a man hater poochee. What about all the women that have affairs? Lets not just single men out here.

Yes, it take two to have an affair. However, a woman has more to lose. She can get pregnant. Then she has to choose to have a baby, or an abortion. Abortion, IMO, is murder.

I was pointing out that Feminism encourages women to live like men.

[LuckyStrike]

As I see it the original goals of the feminist movement in general, or the NOW in particular were equal treatment under the law, and equal treatment and opportunity and pay in the workplace.

In my view the original goals of feminism have mostly been achieved, but the leadership of feminism was long ago hyjacked by radicals with a lesbian, man hating agenda. The NOW has alienated much of it's original constituency.

I wish I had the time and energy to organize my thoughts into words, but I am not very good at that.

My present views of feminism are pretty well expressed by Kate O'Beirne in her book "WOMEN WHO MAKE The WORLD WORSE and How Their Radical Feminist Assault Is Ruining Our Schools, Families, Military, and Sports".

[poochee]

Originally Posted by LuckyStrike

As I see it the original goals of the feminist movement in general, or the NOW in particular were equal treatment under the law, and equal treatment and opportunity and pay in the workplace.

In my view the original goals of feminism have mostly been achieved, but the leadership of feminism was long ago hyjacked by radicals with a lesbian, man hating agenda. The NOW has alienated much of it's original constituency.

I wish I had the time and energy to organize my thoughts into words, but I am not very good at that.

My present views of feminism are pretty well expressed by Kate O'Beirne in her book "WOMEN WHO MAKE The WORLD WORSE and How Their Radical Feminist Assault Is Ruining Our Schools, Families, Military, and Sports".

[iltos]

Originally Posted by valley

May I ask for a clearer explanation? Which portion of feminism do you agree with?

any part of it's that dogmatic (pretty sick of all dogmas, actually)...you're example of frowning on a woman's desire to stay at home with the kids is a great example....in every marriage with children, SOMEBODY needs to be there...feminism introduced the idea that it was ok for a man to stay home....no problem with that whatsoever....but that doesn't mean it's better for woman's empowerment...it just means that now there's a valid choice that works in some families.

agreed...this is why there is so much marketing towards pre-teens (and younger!) right now. Its heavily influenced by the feminist agenda, imo.

.....maybe, but that's strikingly political, in my view....i'd imagine that even most lesbian couples that end of with girl children feel similar concerns as you and i.....methinks its more a matter of our economic system...the ameoba of money, absorbing any opprotunity and all product niches....as jaymo points out, captialism is neutral morally, a product of its environment....if parents allow there 12 year old to mimic something provocative on mtv, the fashion industry will run with it....or worse yet, invent and promote the look as a result of "market analysis"

ah, there's a point of contention for me. The feminist movement not only recognizes women as separate from the marriage unit, but it portrays them as victims. It takes a dim view of women who by their own choice, want to be stay at home moms.

I think its a dangerous illusion to present to young women.

yeah...and methinks this is one of the problems that feminism has brought to our society....increased complexity....i mean, when i was in high school, "homemaking" was a serious girl's course, and the school still offered "shop" and other job oriented classes for boys....aside from the rare laughing stock, nobody crossed gender lines, tho they could have....now, kids need to understand choices that were not even considered before feminism....and parents/schools are faced with the daunting task or presenting them, hopelfully without instilling to much convention or bias.

They push the idea that a woman isnt a "real" woman unless she has it all...and claims that she can have it all without sacrificing a thing, which is false, imo.

this drifts into shamou's thread, imo......and points, as well, to the fact that we the people have, for a variety of reasons, never really sat down culturally and sorted through the feminist movement addressing both the wheat of it and its chaff.....or, perhaps, that is process we are engaged in now.

[Guyzer]

Originally Posted by poochee

Yes, it take two to have an affair.

Thank you...............

Originally Posted by poochee

However, a woman has more to lose. She can get pregnant. Then she has to choose to have a baby, or an abortion.

That's something that has always been in place so feminism hasn't really changed it.

Originally Posted by poochee

Abortion, IMO, is murder.

Different subject for a different thread.

Originally Posted by poochee

I was pointing out that Feminism encourages women to live like men.

So you think we are all a bunch of pigs. There you go lumping all men into the same pile and that's quite sad. Actually it's offensive to most men imo. Consider for a moment we ( men ) could probably spout off a pile of gals names that we know have made terrible choices in their lives. It doesn't matter if it's a male or a female... everybody is capable of " that " despite societies expectations or as you would say " feminism ".

[poochee]

Originally Posted by Wimpy369

Thank you...............

That's something that has always been in place so feminism hasn't really changed it.

Different subject for a different thread.


So you think we are all a bunch of pigs. There you go lumping all men into the same pile and that's quite sad. Actually it's offensive to most men imo. Consider for a moment we ( men ) could probably spout off a pile of gals names that we know have made terrible choices in their lives. It doesn't matter if it's a male or a female... everybody is capable of " that " despite societies expectations or as you would say " feminism ".

Sorry you read it that way. I'd have to get into religion to discuss it any further with you. And that is not what this thread is about.