[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by Stoner

Maybe I trust Gore about as much as the neocon position

I know that. I was just poking you a little. Feel free to poke me back.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by compushlep

Hmmm ... the fur is really flying here, eh 'girls'? Why not pull in your claws for a while, take a quick break from goring Al, and watch this short vid ... maybe it'll cool you off a smidg:

LINK

[LANMaster]

Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says

But ... but ... but

Kate Ravilious
for National Geographic News

February 28, 2007

Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human- induced—cause, according to one scientist's controversial theory.

Earth is currently experiencing rapid warming, which the vast majority of climate scientists says is due to humans pumping huge amounts of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures.

In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row.

Habibullo Abdussamatov, head of the St. Petersburg's Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia, says the Mars data is evidence that the current global warming on Earth is being caused by changes in the sun.

"The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars," he said.

Solar Cycles

Abdussamatov believes that changes in the sun's heat output can account for almost all the climate changes we see on both planets.

Mars and Earth, for instance, have experienced periodic ice ages throughout their histories.

"Man-made greenhouse warming has made a small contribution to the warming seen on Earth in recent years, but it cannot compete with the increase in solar irradiance," Abdussamatov said.

By studying fluctuations in the warmth of the sun, Abdussamatov believes he can see a pattern that fits with the ups and downs in climate we see on Earth and Mars.

Abdussamatov's work, however, has not been well received by other climate scientists.

Of course not. He doesn't meld well with the agenda of most of the pointy-headed leftist scientists who rely on spouting a man-made warming for their living.

[Gabriel]

That is an interesting article LAN...I wonder if the Martians are having this same debate

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says

But ... but ... but
................

But like your repeat of bill.aam post, you also forgot to mention:

according to one scientist's controversial theory.

[LANMaster]

Sorry.... I didn't see Bill's post.

[compushlep]

The hamsters are grasping at anything they possibly can now, to try and prove their point, every little article with the smallest hint of a contrarian view/theory/mention to the majority consensus.

IF they really understood science they would know that IF the sun was heating up and IF that's what was causing the warming on Mars and therefore the Earth ... that they should be even more concerned because of it.

However, that's not the case. What follows maybe a 'little bit' scientific but anyone with a half an ounce of common sense should be able to comprehend it ... I guess the true indicator of understanding will be whether more 'useless' Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, etc., articles appear in this thread


From more than a year ago (imagine that):

Global warming on Mars?
LINK

The article is interesting, plus this one comment at the end of the article sums it up nicely. Enjoy.

The Sun affects climate.
If the Sun becomes more luminous, then to first order, the Earth and Mars both get warmer.
(To second order, possible albedo changes make this more complicated, but that is detail).

The Earth is getting warmer, on a time scale of decades.

Mars temperatures have only been measured for about 30 years, and only systematically and well for about a decade.
Mars mean temperatures are dominated by the frequency of large scale dust storms (more storms, the warmer the surface, as a rule).

Within the limits of the sparse data we have, Mars has cooled over the 30 year baseline (but I'd not trust that much) and the main reason is more big storms back when.

The change in the South Pole is measured over a 6 year (3 Martian year) baseline, since 1999.

The Sun's luminosity is measured on that time scale.

From 1999 to 2005, the Sun became less luminous, because of the 11 year solar cycle.

Therefore, any warming on Mars between 1999 and 2005 can not possibly be due to the Sun's luminosity increasing, because we measured the Sun's luminosity to decrease!

This is independent of climate sensitivity, whether the Martian warming is local or global, and second order sensitivities to solar spectrum and flux.

Comment by Steinn Sigurdsson — 2 Nov 2005

[LANMaster]

[compushlep]

Since the understanding of the problem is apparently well beyond their reach, what would it take for the hamsters to become a part of the solution? Surely, there must be at least one function they're capable of performing ... so let's make an effort to put it in terms even they can understand.
..

[LANMaster]

Nice try, Shleppers. The cartoon illustrates the myth of man-made global warming pretty well.

[LANMaster]

.... But you are welcome to drink all the Kool-Aid that you want.

Al Guardian seems to be quenching their thirst as well .....

Al-Guardian Defends Global Warming Hoax

Following the announcement of Channel 4’s documentary debunking The Great Global Warming Swindle, Britain’s extreme left newspaper The Guardian goes on the attack against this double-plus ungood mindcrime: Why Channel 4 has got it wrong over climate change.

And they throw in a little “America is eeeevil” red meat for the devotees: Official report says US CO2 to rise by 20%.

[LANMaster]

Al Gore’s plans to usher in a new version of capitalism. One that really doesn’t sound much like capitalism at all: Riehl World View: Gore Funding Plan For ‘A New World Order’.


gulp, gulp, gulp, gulp ....... drink up!

[sy2]

Allegre's second thoughts
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...5-fc28f14da388

Claude Allegre, one of France's leading socialists and among her most celebrated scientists, was among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming.
...
In the 1980s and early 1990s, when concern about global warming was in its infancy, little was known about the mechanics of how it could occur, or the consequences that could befall us. Since then, governments throughout the western world and bodies such as the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change have commissioned billions of dollars worth of research by thousands of scientists. With a wealth of data now in, Dr. Allegre has recanted his views. To his surprise, the many climate models and studies failed dismally in establishing a man-made cause of catastrophic global warming. Meanwhile, increasing evidence indicates that most of the warming comes of natural phenomena. Dr. Allegre now sees global warming as over-hyped and an environmental concern of second rank.
...
His article cited evidence that Antarctica is gaining ice and that Kilimanjaro's retreating snow caps, among other global-warming concerns, come from natural causes. "The cause of this climate change is unknown," he states matter of factly. There is no basis for saying, as most do, that the "science is settled."

Dr. Allegre's skepticism is noteworthy in several respects. For one, he is an exalted member of France's political establishment, a friend of former Socialist president Lionel Jospin, and, from 1997 to 2000, his minister of education, research and technology, charged with improving the quality of government research through closer co-operation with France's educational institutions. For another, Dr. Allegre has the highest environmental credentials. The author of early environmental books, he fought successful battles to protect the ozone layer from CFCs and public health from lead pollution. His break with scientific dogma over global warming came at a personal cost: Colleagues in both the governmental and environmental spheres were aghast that he could publicly question the science behind climate change.

Continued at link.

EDIT: A last bit that I thought was important for those who aren't going to read the full article (This is the beginning of the 2nd paragraph after the last quote):

Calling the arguments of those who see catastrophe in climate change "simplistic and obscuring the true dangers," Dr. Allegre especially despairs at "the greenhouse-gas fanatics whose proclamations consist in denouncing man's role on the climate without doing anything about it except organizing conferences and preparing protocols that become dead letters."

[compushlep]

This is your pro-deniers argument?

Let's look at just these statements by Allegre:

Dr. Allegre has recanted his views. To his surprise, the many climate models and studies failed dismally in establishing a man-made cause of catastrophic global warming. Meanwhile, increasing evidence indicates that most of the warming comes of natural phenomena. Dr. Allegre now sees global warming as over-hyped and an environmental concern of second rank.
------
His article cited evidence that Antarctica is gaining ice and that Kilimanjaro's retreating snow caps, among other global-warming concerns, come from natural causes

He's just repeating the old denial chestnuts that have been discredited many times over.

Re: 'models and studies failed': LINK

Re: 'most of the warming comes of natural phenomena': here's a link which clearly shows otherwise LINK -- notice how well the actual observations follow the modelled anthropogenic causes, while natural phenoms can't account for the changes

Re: 'Antarctica', etc. : how good of him to mention that ... that's where the 'hamster' label originated!!
see here LINK

Don't know if you remember I told you a while ago the National ComPost is about the most right-wing rag in Canada, but even knowing that I tried to keep an open mind while reading further into the article (as you recommended).
You know what? I couldn't go on reading it wihout losing my cookies ... most of it is just a rehash of what has been said in this thread already. The article does not break any new ground, rather it's mostly a compilation of discredited denier tactics from the past.

[compushlep]

Originally Posted by LANMaster

Nice try, Shleppers. The cartoon illustrates the myth of man-made global warming pretty well.

Originally Posted by LANMaster

.... But you are welcome to drink all the Kool-Aid that you want.

Al Guardian seems to be quenching their thirst as well .....

Al-Guardian Defends Global Warming Hoax

Following the announcement of Channel 4’s documentary debunking The Great Global Warming Swindle, Britain’s extreme left newspaper The Guardian goes on the attack against this double-plus ungood mindcrime: Why Channel 4 has got it wrong over climate change.

And they throw in a little “America is eeeevil” red meat for the devotees: Official report says US CO2 to rise by 20%.

Time and again you bring up items without realizing they go nicely against your zealous quest to deny. Seems you again posted 'thinking' (that's a loose term, it's more like simple sorting into convenient drawers for you) the Guardian article somehow proves your point ... it's actually very good in showing how increasingly desperate and ridiculous the deniers are becoming ... which makes me wonder how many more bullet holes your foot can tolerate.

Stick to bashing Al and posting infantile cartoons, cuz that's all you really have left.

Let's make an uncomplicated forecast here, based on your obvious mindset: you'll still be searching for any spec of dirt you can dig up in the denial area while the rest of the world has long moved on in helping to solve the GW problem ... including the U.S. (with or without Bush's gov't measures -- individual states will likely do much better on their own).