[sy2]

Originally Posted by compushlep

Just in case you missed it, see post #1771 : "The greatest risk you face with a broken CFL is cutting yourself on a shard of glass"

Tell that to the guy with the $2,000 bill for safely removing the mercury from his home when he accidentally broke one.

Originally Posted by Brite's article

Brandy Bridges of Ellsworth, Maine, could be looking at a cost of about $2,004.28, which doesn’t include the costs of frayed nerves and risks to health.
...
According to an April 12 article in The Ellsworth American, Bridges had the misfortune of breaking a CFL during installation in her daughter’s bedroom: It dropped and shattered on the carpeted floor.
...
The DEP (Department of Environmental Protection) sent a specialist to Bridges’ house to test for mercury contamination. The specialist found mercury levels in the bedroom in excess of six times the state’s “safe” level for mercury contamination of 300 billionths of a gram per cubic meter.

[compushlep]

C'mon ... let's use some common sense here. Even the dubious article you refer to calls the incident "full-scale panic ... $2,000 cleanup", and then points to the same DEP web site (of the 'experts' who over-charged for disposal) where it provides a 'do-it-yourself-cleanup'. Even that is overdone, IMO.
Now consider how many of millions of these bulbs are already in use, and how many incidents of 'panicky' clean up have been written about (only one I have seen so far), and then maybe you'll see things in a different light.
On the other hand, if you subscribe to Fox type hype, maybe not

One would probably ingest more Mercury when eating a certain kind of tuna sandwich 3 times a week (habitually) than one would uptake from one CFL breakage exposure.

And last, but not least, do yourself a favour and Wiki S. Milloy (the article's author) ... and then discuss his agenda/credibility

[LANMaster]

Climate change hits Mars

Darn those evil Capitalists!

Mars is being hit by rapid climate change and it is happening so fast that the red planet could lose its southern ice cap, writes Jonathan Leake.

Scientists from Nasa say that Mars has warmed by about 0.5C since the 1970s. This is similar to the warming experienced on Earth over approximately the same period.

.... And how do they determine that this is natural, and not caused by the Bush Administration environmental policies?

Since there is no known life on Mars it suggests rapid changes in planetary climates could be natural phenomena.

Nice.

The mechanism at work on Mars appears, however, to be different from that on Earth. One of the researchers, Lori Fenton, believes variations in radiation and temperature across the surface of the Red Planet are generating strong winds.

In a paper published in the journal Nature, she suggests that such winds can stir up giant dust storms, trapping heat and raising the planet’s temperature.

Fenton’s team unearthed heat maps of the Martian surface from Nasa’s Viking mission in the 1970s and compared them with maps gathered more than two decades later by Mars Global Surveyor. They found there had been widespread changes, with some areas becoming darker.

When a surface darkens it absorbs more heat, eventually radiating that heat back to warm the thin Martian atmosphere: lighter surfaces have the opposite effect. The temperature differences between the two are thought to be stirring up more winds, and dust, creating a cycle that is warming the planet.

Link

This is clearly more scientific evidence that earth's global climate change is more a result of a warmer sun, and not mankind's wicked capitalism.

Don't hold your breath about it ever being reported truthfully in the MSM.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by compushlep

C'mon ... let's use some common sense here.

You should go on tour with a line like that.

[sy2]

Originally Posted by compushlep

C'mon ... let's use some common sense here. Even the dubious article you refer to calls the incident "full-scale panic ... $2,000 cleanup", and then points to the same DEP web site (of the 'experts' who over-charged for disposal) where it provides a 'do-it-yourself-cleanup'. Even that is overdone, IMO.
Now consider how many of millions of these bulbs are already in use, and how many incidents of 'panicky' clean up have been written about (only one I have seen so far), and then maybe you'll see things in a different light.
On the other hand, if you subscribe to Fox type hype, maybe not

One would probably ingest more Mercury when eating a certain kind of tuna sandwich 3 times a week (habitually) than one would uptake from one CFL breakage exposure.

And last, but not least, do yourself a favour and Wiki S. Milloy (the article's author) ... and then discuss his agenda/credibility

Milloy wrote the Fox piece. I tried to specifically reference the parts that were pulled from the source article in The Ellsworth American in order to avoid the "Well it's from FOX it must be false" cop-out.

As far as how often has this occurred? I don't know; I don't particularly look out for the articles about this topic, but Brite posted it so I read it. Even if the DEP was overcharging the guy, the fact remains that that's what he was charged! So go for the do-it-yourself option, you say?

"Consider the procedure offered by the Maine DEP’s Web page entitled, “What if I accidentally break a fluorescent bulb in my home?”

Don’t vacuum bulb debris because a standard vacuum will spread mercury-containing dust throughout the area and contaminate the vacuum. Ventilate the area and reduce the temperature. Wear protective equipment like goggles, coveralls and a dust mask.

Collect the waste material into an airtight container. Pat the area with the sticky side of tape. Wipe with a damp cloth. Finally, check with local authorities to see where hazardous waste may be properly disposed."

Yeah that sounds real convenient

If these things aren't dangerous when they break then that just tells us that our Mercury regulations are FAR too strict. The levels were 6 times higher than the state's "safe level," and either that's a problem or the "safe level" is far too low.

What's hilarious about this is that everyone would be screaming bloody murder if Cheney or Bush proposed this. We'd just hear, "Follow the money! They must have stocks in the CFL production industry! Ban lightbulbs?! Way to keep eroding our personal freedoms!"

It's ridiculous! Go ahead and buy all the CFL's you want, but it is NOT the government's job to tell me which light bulb that I can and cannot purchase. What's next on the list of forbidden fruit? Only certain types of charcoal grills? Stoves/ovens? Does the government disapprove of my washer and dryer?

[lotuseclat79]

Oddball schemes to fix global warming get thumb's down
Article here.

Unconventional schemes for tackling global warming by installing a giant sunshade in orbit, sowing the seas with iron and scattering sulphur into the upper atmosphere are set to be bluntly rejected by UN experts this week.

-- Tom

[lotuseclat79]

Arctic ice retreating more quickly than computer models project
Article here.

Arctic sea ice is melting at a significantly faster rate than projected by even the most advanced computer models, a new study concludes. The research, by scientists at the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) and the University of Colorado's National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC), shows that the Arctic's ice cover is retreating more rapidly than estimated by any of the 18 computer models used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in preparing its 2007 assessments.


This figure illustrates the extent to which Arctic sea ice is melting faster than projected by computer models. The dotted line represents the average rate of melting indicated by computer models, with the blue area indicating the spread among the different models (shown as plus/minus one standard deviation). The red line shows the actual rate of Arctic ice loss based on observations. The observations have been particularly accurate since 1979 because of new satellite technology. Credit: Steve Deyo, UCAR

Note: What this shows (to me) is that the 18 computers models used by the IPCC for their 2007 assessment do not cover the variables needed to predict this occurence.

-- Tom

[lotuseclat79]

Puzzling plankton yield secrets to role in evolution, global photosynthesis
Article here.

The analysis of DNA sequences from tiny green algae have provided new insights into the mystery of how new species of plankton evolve—and further highlights their critical role in managing the global cycling of carbon.

-- Tom

[valis]

test we all need to take.....heck, even I learned a thing or 5.

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/Gl...est/start.html

[compushlep]

Originally Posted by sy2

Milloy wrote the Fox piece. I tried to specifically reference the parts that were pulled from the source article in The Ellsworth American in order to avoid the "Well it's from FOX it must be false" cop-out.

As far as how often has this occurred? I don't know; I don't particularly look out for the articles about this topic, but Brite posted it so I read it. Even if the DEP was overcharging the guy, the fact remains that that's what he was charged! So go for the do-it-yourself option, you say?

"Consider the procedure offered by the Maine DEP’s Web page entitled, “What if I accidentally break a fluorescent bulb in my home?”

Don’t vacuum bulb debris because a standard vacuum will spread mercury-containing dust throughout the area and contaminate the vacuum. Ventilate the area and reduce the temperature. Wear protective equipment like goggles, coveralls and a dust mask.

Collect the waste material into an airtight container. Pat the area with the sticky side of tape. Wipe with a damp cloth. Finally, check with local authorities to see where hazardous waste may be properly disposed."

Yeah that sounds real convenient

If these things aren't dangerous when they break then that just tells us that our Mercury regulations are FAR too strict. The levels were 6 times higher than the state's "safe level," and either that's a problem or the "safe level" is far too low.

What's hilarious about this is that everyone would be screaming bloody murder if Cheney or Bush proposed this. We'd just hear, "Follow the money! They must have stocks in the CFL production industry! Ban lightbulbs?! Way to keep eroding our personal freedoms!"

It's ridiculous! Go ahead and buy all the CFL's you want, but it is NOT the government's job to tell me which light bulb that I can and cannot purchase. What's next on the list of forbidden fruit? Only certain types of charcoal grills? Stoves/ovens? Does the government disapprove of my washer and dryer?

You know what? This 'arguing' over basically nothing is really not worth it, other than in trying to educate those who don't know, or who are easily mislead, or those lacking common sense. So here goes my last effort, for what ever it's worth

Re this over-priced 'expert crew' advice: the dept. could have just as easily suggested, or provided the homeowner with a cleanup kit such as this one, very popular with many labs where Mercury is routinely handled LINK.

Cost of the spill kit you ask? $37.90 -- if really concerned and not willing to attempt it, even though it's relatively simple and safe to do so, hire a junior lab technician to come in on his own time. The kid will probably be happy to earn an extra 25 bucks for beer money, for 20 or 30 min of light work! ... ah hell, give him $50 and he'll take his time to do a real good job!!

Btw, unless more than a pound of Mercury is spilled (454 grams, or about 2 tbl spoons), one is not required to report it to the authorities (in most jurisdictions) ... that's about a factor of 100,000 to 500,000 more than what the broken CFL contained. I bet the junior tech could handle even a pound of the stuff.

Now think about this: even if whoever broke the bulb got down on all fours, with nose to the carpet, and snorted the entire contents -- the powder 'laced' with a few milligrams of Mercury -- the uptake would have been minimal. No one would recommend doing something as stupid as that, of course ... but I've already given you the amount comparo vs a tooth filling or a household thermometer, as usual that fell on deaf ears. But surely you can google for info which will tell you what hazard a milligram poses to the average body (if anything), and how to 'eliminate' it from the same body.

Yes, a Mercury spill poses a certain hazard, even in small quantities, but with a small amount of instruction, and a dose of common sense, it can be handled safely, and without much fanfare or expense. This is maybe where the manufacturers are lacking until they provide/include simple cleanup and disposal tips with this product. But that can be easily rectified with an instruction sheet or even a 1-800 type help line.

Btw, I used to work in a research facility, and even though I rarely handled Mercury, there were dept's in my building which did ... I knew most of the technicians there and their expert advice was always good and free ... well, sometimes it cost me a beer or two

So my recommend, though slightly less expert, is: put your fears to bed and have a beer instead ... or 2 beers before tackling a super-hazardous 1 milligram CFL spill

I'd try to stay away from iffy, over-hyped, sensationalized articles, such as the ones one is likely to get from tabloid 'news' sources like Fox. Instead, google for MSDS on Mercury, on cleanup spill kits, etc. if really interested ... there's lots of good info out there if you don't mind looking for it.

[lotuseclat79]

Experts Target Rice As Climate Culprit
Article here.

As delegates to a climate conference here debate how to reduce greenhouse gases, one of the problems - and a possible solution - lies in the rice fields that cover much of Thailand, the rest of Asia and beyond.

Note: According to the IPCC report: "rice production was a main cause of rising methane emissions in the 20th century"; "Methane emissions are unique to rice,"; It's the bacteria that thrive in flooded paddies that produce methane, by decomposing manure used as fertilizer and other organic matter in the oxygen-free environment. The gas is emitted through the plants or directly into the atmosphere.

As a counter-point: rice feeds a significant percentage of the world's population, so the question is how to continue rice production levels while modifying the methane which results from its production - genetically modified rice anyone? Or, is the problem related only to the fertilizer used and not the rice?

-- Tom

[valis]

Melting greenland ice raising ocean level.

link

The world's oceans could rise by up to seven meters if Greenland's ice cap entirely melts because of global warming, climate scientists said Tuesday.

Glaciers on Greenland, the world's most icy land mass, are now melting most quickly where they are in contact with surrounding ocean, while ice in the high centre remains intact, said Garry Clarke, a professor at the University of British Columbia in this western Canadian city.

But if global warming causes the freezing level to move higher, the loss of ice would be worse than Greenland experienced in previous interglacial periods dating back hundreds of thousands of years.

"It would be the complete disappearance of the Greenland ice sheet," Clarke told a meeting of scientists and journalists. "We still don't know how quickly our rendezvous with this will occur."

The scientists said much research remains to be done because climate models on Arctic ice sheets are inadequate. Their research contributes to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which will release another report in early May.

Much of their data, the scientists said, is obtained by two satellite tracking systems and gravitational physics.

The speakers were from the Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences, which is composed of scientists from universities throughout Canada.

Canada will be the country most impacted by global warming, said the group chair Gordon McBean, a scientist and former federal government deputy minister.

[Paquadez]

How to Solve Global Warming at a Stroke:

1. Pick a huge active volcano:

2. Seed it with a number of HUGE Thermo-Nuclear Devices:

3. Detonate:

Problem solved.

Why?

Because the Volcanic Winter which results, wil drop the temperature of the planet by many degrees. It will also shield solar radiation of most types.

One unfortunate by product: all animal life will starve as nothing will grow for a hundred years or so.

Doubters?

Research the eruption of Krakatoa 1883.

Paq

[sy2]

Originally Posted by compushlep

You know what? This 'arguing' over basically nothing is really not worth it, other than in trying to educate those who don't know, or who are easily mislead, or those lacking common sense. So here goes my last effort, for what ever it's worth

Re this over-priced 'expert crew' advice: the dept. could have just as easily suggested, or provided the homeowner with a cleanup kit such as this one, very popular with many labs where Mercury is routinely handled LINK.

Cost of the spill kit you ask? $37.90 -- if really concerned and not willing to attempt it, even though it's relatively simple and safe to do so, hire a junior lab technician to come in on his own time. The kid will probably be happy to earn an extra 25 bucks for beer money, for 20 or 30 min of light work! ... ah hell, give him $50 and he'll take his time to do a real good job!!

Btw, unless more than a pound of Mercury is spilled (454 grams, or about 2 tbl spoons), one is not required to report it to the authorities (in most jurisdictions) ... that's about a factor of 100,000 to 500,000 more than what the broken CFL contained. I bet the junior tech could handle even a pound of the stuff.

Now think about this: even if whoever broke the bulb got down on all fours, with nose to the carpet, and snorted the entire contents -- the powder 'laced' with a few milligrams of Mercury -- the uptake would have been minimal. No one would recommend doing something as stupid as that, of course ... but I've already given you the amount comparo vs a tooth filling or a household thermometer, as usual that fell on deaf ears. But surely you can google for info which will tell you what hazard a milligram poses to the average body (if anything), and how to 'eliminate' it from the same body.

Yes, a Mercury spill poses a certain hazard, even in small quantities, but with a small amount of instruction, and a dose of common sense, it can be handled safely, and without much fanfare or expense. This is maybe where the manufacturers are lacking until they provide/include simple cleanup and disposal tips with this product. But that can be easily rectified with an instruction sheet or even a 1-800 type help line.

Btw, I used to work in a research facility, and even though I rarely handled Mercury, there were dept's in my building which did ... I knew most of the technicians there and their expert advice was always good and free ... well, sometimes it cost me a beer or two

So my recommend, though slightly less expert, is: put your fears to bed and have a beer instead ... or 2 beers before tackling a super-hazardous 1 milligram CFL spill

I'd try to stay away from iffy, over-hyped, sensationalized articles, such as the ones one is likely to get from tabloid 'news' sources like Fox. Instead, google for MSDS on Mercury, on cleanup spill kits, etc. if really interested ... there's lots of good info out there if you don't mind looking for it.

You're right that it isn't worth it, which is why I said at the end of my post, I don't care which bulbs you or anyone else uses, it just isn't the governments place to mandate one or the other exclusively. That's it - that's my whole point.

The spillage example is more of a demonstration that nothing is as simple as, "Wow these seem to work, let's mandate full replacement." We've gone from these things being absolutely harmless, don't even worry about it, to the idea that it may be smart to install a mercury cleanup kit in your home. Complications will arise, they always do, and it's never as simple as first imagined.

Again - if we do this, what's next? Grilling regulations (there's already been talk of "barbecue licenses" in Australia, I believe)? Washer/Dryer regulations? I can't believe that the same folks who are upset about the government "eroding our rights" are so willing to sign over more personal decision making to the federal government!

Buy CFL's if that makes you feel good and if you think you'll save money. By the same token, if you don't believe that then don't buy them. It's that simple - no government intrusion necessary.

[Paquadez]

Read Michael Chrichton's book, State of Fear. 2004.

The bibliography alone is worth the cover price, let alone the discounted (amazon) price!
See Chrichton's website: www.michaelchrichton.com

Paq