[valis]

Originally Posted by bryantms

The Kyoto Protocol didn't even include developing countries like China and India, and its goal was to lower the global temperature by 1 degree Celsius over 100 years. Are you kidding me? We can try to be green all we want, but it won't help.

You can have fun driving a hybrid vehicle. I'll drive my SUV and be much safer and more comfortable. You can use fluorescent light bulbs all you want. Just don't come bitching to me when you hear about the mercury spills in landfills as they weren't disposed of properly. You can buy your Carbon Credits all you want. I'll spend my money on something that actually means something.

again, right and wrong, IMO. We can be green all we want, and it will, at best, make a small difference. But again, given the complexity of the ecosystem model, even a small difference can make a big change in the long run. Something is going to give soon, we just don't know what it will be.

As for the suv, enjoy it. I personally don't see any reason to drive one unless you need to (we got a minivan, and when we bought it, found out that it actually had more storage, held more people, got better gas mileage, and had a higher resale value), but if you want to spend that cash on an suv, it's your priority, not mine. I like driving my car that gets 35 mpg and only has a 10 gallon tank.

Easier on the pocketbook, don't ya know.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by bryantms

You make quite a few good points BanditFlyer, and you certainly represent civilized debate well. I may just have to look into Volvos in the future!

Oh man!!!!

I laughed when I read that, sorry.

Today's a fluke, I swear!

I think that's the first time I've ever been accused of representing civ-deb well. I must say that was quite the surprise.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by valis

again, right and wrong, IMO. We can be green all we want, and it will, at best, make a small difference. But again, given the complexity of the ecosystem model, even a small difference can make a big change in the long run. Something is going to give soon, we just don't know what it will be.

It USED to be that the US had 5% of the world's population and made 50% of the world's pollution. That's NOT the case anymore. I don't know anything about India, but China will soon be the world's "Gross Polluter". Trying to change the pollution output of the US as a percentage of worldwide pollution will soon be like rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic.

The reason I posted that link to the Tragedy of the Commons is that it illustrates something about fairness and competitiveness. If we restrict ourselves out of a desire for fairness, we lose.

We have to restrict the Chinese as well.

Originally Posted by valis

As for the suv, enjoy it. I personally don't see any reason to drive one unless you need to (we got a minivan, and when we bought it, found out that it actually had more storage, held more people, got better gas mileage, and had a higher resale value), but if you want to spend that cash on an suv, it's your priority, not mine. I like driving my car that gets 35 mpg and only has a 10 gallon tank.

Easier on the pocketbook, don't ya know.

Cars are mainly a practical consideration that most people abandon all practicality when choosing. Minivans also have higher likelihoods of rollover accidents than cars do, just like SUVs. They ARE more practical than SUVs in terms of space and mileage.

Cars are a personal choice. Even when you think you've objectively made the most rational decision available, chances are , you haven't.

[valis]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

It USED to be that the US had 5% of the world's population and made 50% of the world's pollution. That's NOT the case anymore. I don't know anything about India, but China will soon be the world's "Gross Polluter". Trying to change the pollution output of the US as a percentage of worldwide pollution will soon be like rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic.

The reason I posted that link to the Tragedy of the Commons is that it illustrates something about fairness and competitiveness. If we restrict ourselves out of a desire for fairness, we lose.

We have to restrict the Chinese as well.

Cars are mainly a practical consideration that most people abandon all practicality when choosing. Minivans also have higher likelihoods of rollover accidents than cars do, just like SUVs. They ARE more practical than SUVs in terms of space and mileage.

Cars are a personal choice. Even when you think you've objectively made the most rational decision available, chances are , you haven't.

of course minivans do. Anything with a higher center of gravity and four wheels is going to have a higher liklihood of rollover than something with a lower center of gravity. Which is why F1 cars are about18 inches off the ground.

wonder if I can get a child seat on one of those.......

seriously, though, I think we did pretty good with the minivan deal. We shopped around, knew what we wanted safety-wise, mileage and storage wise, and the answer always seemed to be minivan. Then we decided on what we needed (do you really want stow and go seating for an extra grand or so? Only use it once or twice each year) and various other amenities, and we were good to go. Did a LOT of shopping around to get the best deal on the trade in, and which had the best warranty options, and after that, it was just getting them to conform to our needs.

Or rather, finding one that would, shall we say. That, and the color. women. Sheesh. I fail to see what is wrong with putting flames on a minivan.

[lizard]

Originally Posted by bryantms

If you like taking something out of context...

What this means is that it wasn't a crisis. The planet moved on. Plant and animal life adapted to the different regions of the world as they moved apart over time. Obviously they weren't writing about this in the NY Times. I believe global warming is the same way. Nature will move on. (And for the record, we are a part of nature.)

Let's stick to references where humanity was part of the picture, since it is a very big part of the picture now, and the driving force in Global Warming. What happened before is irrelevant. The planet has existed for billions of years without humans. It can exist for billions of years more the same way. It doesn't need us. We're just another species. Expendable.

Originally Posted by bryantms

Let's look at a few things that have been blamed on global warming:

Let's stick to the science and discuss whatever problems you see with peer-reviewed and accepted scientific reports.

Originally Posted by bryantms

Do me a favor and check all those links - I'm sure they'll work. Do you honestly think global warming has caused all of these things? That's an honest question in which I'm looking forward to hearing an honest response.

No, I don't. Jounalistic license and misinformation in some cases, I'm sure. Readership concerns in others, etc.

Originally Posted by bryantms

Global warming has been around since the early 90's. Where is this impending doom that they are all talking about?

Ice sheets in Greenland, the Arctic, and the Antarctic are all melting right now.

Glaciers are receding all over the planet. The Himilayan Glaciers provide water for billions of people. When their output slows down to a trickle, where do you want these billions of people to go?

Bangladeshis who grew rice on their farms for generations are now cultivating shrimp because of the rising sea level and the salt water. Rice needs care and people to work it and earn a living. Shrimp needs comparatively few. Pretty soon, they might all have to pack it up and go live somewhere else. Where do you want these millions of people to go?

When the Inuit in the Far North go on their hunting trips, more and more of them are falling through the ice and dying. Almost every Inuit knows of someone who has recently died from falling through the ice. So, living in the Far North is not as 'safe' as it used to be because of the rising temperatures and the Inuit should move from there because it will get worse. Where do you want them to go?

Trees and mosquitoes are now invasive species in the Far North.

There's more, but it would be a very long list.

BTW, The impending doom you were looking for....

Contributions of past and present human generations to committed warming caused by carbon dioxide
present and past changes in carbon dioxide concentrations affect the climate experienced by each generation, their children, their grandchildren, and later generations.

Originally Posted by bryantms

If you want to read a real article - one that does its research and is well documented -check this out.

The author of that article is described as follows:

Just another article from the "America in denial" camp.

Originally Posted by bryantms

No matter what you think, global warming is not "truth".

Oh, it's not just me. There are literally thousands and thousands of respectable Scientists who all agree on the issue. Global Warming is here. Global Warming is caused by manmade Co2 emissions via Deforestation, Agriculture, Coal, and Fossil Fuels.
It's all here. It's all happening. It's us. Humanity is the guilty party.

Time for the 'man' in 'human' to live up to it, and stop pointing fingers in all directions.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by valis

Or rather, finding one that would, shall we say. That, and the color. women. Sheesh. I fail to see what is wrong with putting flames on a minivan.

Sounds good about the deal on the miniban. Personally, I'd say it's never too late for a flame job. I've always had a thing for the metalflake green. You could get some translucent pink flames on it with a big American Eagle soaring on the topside of the walls breathing fire and holding a blasting M-60 in it's talons. Maybe pointed toward a picture of a competing brand, like a miniature picture of a Ford Windstar with oil leaking from it's bullet-wounds and x's painted as it's headlights to represent it's "eyes".

Then of course you'd have to paint a big Jolly Roger on the hood, just for effect.

Not sure how I'd like the concept of a chrome skull as an end on a column-shifter. Automatic transmissions just have something that screams "wussy" about them. Perhaps a nice chrome skull would liven that up a bit.

[bryantms]

While I don't have time right now for a quick reply lizard, I must say this is amusing. I like how you easily take an article by a Doctor (of organic chemistry which isbased on carbon no less!) and count it as nothing. You have already made up your mind and no amount of reason will change it.

I'll give you one more article (which is all I have time for now):

Ice Sheet is Growing!

This article is from globalwarming.org no less! But hey, go ahead and toss this one aside. You probably won't read it as I'm sure you didn't read the last one.

Closing question: Do you think the sun affects global warming at all?

[lizard]

Originally Posted by valis

........We owe to ourselves and to our children to do what we can, and that includes not driving an SUV unless you are doing some four wheeling.......

Good point, except I've only seen one dirty SUV this year. SUV owners keep them spotless and shiny around here. They're not for 4-wheeling. They're a status symbol. Big Jewelery. Like "I'm rich. I'm successful. I got money to waste. I got babes."

[lizard]

Originally Posted by bryantms

....If everyone drove hybrid cars tomorrow, it wouldn't change anything.....

Do you have a link to a scientific study that would back up that statement?

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by lizard

Do you have a link to a scientific study that would back up that statement?

It just makes sense. How many people can afford a hybrid? What percentage of the population? If everyone in the US who could afford one drove one, that'd probably amount to reducing the carbon output of the US by ONE of those Chinese factories that get's built in a WEEK.

[valis]

Originally Posted by lizard

Good point, except I've only seen one dirty SUV this year. SUV owners keep them spotless and shiny around here. They're not for 4-wheeling. They're a status symbol. Big Jewelery. Like "I'm rich. I'm successful. I got money to waste. I got babes."

thank you. Made my point exactly. It's an ego thing, not a convenience thing. We went round and round on this subject a few months back in a thread not too far from here, and I can't get over the fact that you can drive by an apartment complex and see 30k SUV's in the parking lot.

Me? I'd rather drive my little saturn and park it in my house.

but that's just me.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by valis

thank you. Made my point exactly. It's an ego thing, not a convenience thing. We went round and round on this subject a few months back in a thread not too far from here, and I can't get over the fact that you can drive by an apartment complex and see 30k SUV's in the parking lot.

Me? I'd rather drive my little saturn and park it in my house.

but that's just me.

Now let's say you're a horny single guy with an ego and a healthy dose of self-preservation instinct.

Wouldn't it benefit you to buy an SUV rather than a really fast motorpsycho, hopped up Camaro, or base-model Ariel Atom/Lotus Exige/Corvette?

You're gonna blow the cash anyway, so why not blow it on something relatively safe and not as likely to get your license(and/or life-support) pulled?

[lizard]

Originally Posted by bryantms

While I don't have time right now for a quick reply lizard, I must say this is amusing. I like how you easily take an article by a Doctor (of organic chemistry which isbased on carbon no less!) and count it as nothing. You have already made up your mind and no amount of reason will change it.

Yes, it is amusing.
You take one article by one doctor and hold it up as proof that the findings of thousands of Climate Scientists are lies.
Do you have any articles from any Climate Scientists to back up your claims?
Organic Chemistry. Is he a farmer?

Originally Posted by bryantms

I'll give you one more article (which is all I have time for now):

Ice Sheet is Growing!

This article is from globalwarming.org no less! But hey, go ahead and toss this one aside. You probably won't read it as I'm sure you didn't read the last one.

Hey! That article is from 5 years ago. Pretty old news in the "Climate Change" world. Is that Ice Sheet growing now?
In almost any scenario, you will find an exception. It doesn't make it the rule.

Originally Posted by bryantms

Closing question: Do you think the sun affects global warming at all?

Yes it does. Absolutely. However, according to reputable scientists the sun is not playing a major role in the current trend.

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by lizard

Is he a farmer?

"Organic" just means "having to do with carbon". Just clearing that up for anyone who doesn't already know.

[LANMaster]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

"Organic" just means "having to do with carbon". Just clearing that up for anyone who doesn't already know.

Yup.

It's amazing how many people are sucked in by the word, "organic" when all it means is carbon content.