[lizard]

Chronicling the Ice

Long before global warming became a cause célèbre, Lonnie Thompson was extracting climate secrets from ancient glaciers. He finds the problem is even more profound than you might have thought

"What really stands out," he says, "is how unusual the last 50 years have been compared to at least the last 2,000 and perhaps the last 5,000 years." Rising temperatures are rapidly reducing the ice that permanently caps high mountains around the world. Well before the end of this century, much, and in some areas most of it, will be gone. The loss is a harbinger of even larger, potentially catastrophic, consequences.

Interesting 5 page write-up here, including some indication of the problems forseen by the melting of the Tibetan Plateau's 45,000+ glaciers.


edit: correction to the Tibetan Plateau.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by lizard

Hi Sarge.
We've discussed Kilimanjaro in this thread a little while back, starting around post #2119
Maybe you'd like to review those posts.
Kilimanjaro is a complete anomaly.

So thats not to say Global Warming is not occuring, its just not the whole cause at Kilimanjaro.

[lizard]

Originally Posted by Sarge

So thats not to say Global Warming is not occuring, its just not the whole cause at Kilimanjaro.

[Littlefield]

Liz Edwards will not eat tangerines any more to support global warming
"We've been moving back to 'buy local,'" Mrs. Edwards said, outlining a trade policy that "acknowledges the carbon footprint" of transporting fruit.''

Maybe she can visit Oprah Winfrey to get some from her backyard in Cally

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi...s_for_you.html

[imrippinit]

Tempest In A Teapot

Global Warming: A private firm's downgrade of its hurricane forecast raises an obvious question: If scientists can't get near-future projections in a limited area right, how can they predict the climate decades from now?

A reasonable response is: They can't. But the global warming climate of fear did not blow in on the soft breezes of reason, but by the storm winds of emotion.

[bryantms]

Originally Posted by imrippinit

Tempest In A Teapot

Global Warming: A private firm's downgrade of its hurricane forecast raises an obvious question: If scientists can't get near-future projections in a limited area right, how can they predict the climate decades from now?

A reasonable response is: They can't. But the global warming climate of fear did not blow in on the soft breezes of reason, but by the storm winds of emotion.

You're exactly right. Whether you believe in global warming or not, you must admit that it has been exploited beyond belief. People are making money off this in ways that are just downright ridiculous. Carbon credits? Are you kidding me?

Personally, I believe that it is being hyped by scientists (not all) in order to gain more grant money - because let's face it, there's not much money coming your way in science unless there's, oh I don't know, let's say a worldwide catastrophe that will change humanity as we know it unless we all act now!

[lotuseclat79]

Originally Posted by imrippinit

Tempest In A Teapot

Global Warming: A private firm's downgrade of its hurricane forecast raises an obvious question: If scientists can't get near-future projections in a limited area right, how can they predict the climate decades from now?

A reasonable response is: They can't. But the global warming climate of fear did not blow in on the soft breezes of reason, but by the storm winds of emotion.

One thing is clear, and that is that you - imprippinit and your stalwart dumblefuss, bryantms - understand nothing with regard to the data that scientists use to predict the hurricane season or whether GW is having an impact on weather around the world. Scientists, you see, are always willing to revise their best estimates when they get new information. The new information in this case was the new data on ocean temperatures in the Atlantic Ocean which allowed them to reforecast their estimates. Too technical for 'ya, huh?

How quick you are to jump on emotion as your 'caterwalling cry to arms' - much ado about nothing IMHO as to your point of view - learn something about science before you start criticizing without the slightest bit of information based on fact or science.

-- Tom

P.S. Go back to school and learn a thing or two about Science!

[bryantms]

Stalwart dumblefuss - that's a first for me...

In your rant you admitted that global warming may be wrong! Believe it or not. You stated:

Originally Posted by lotuseclat79

Scientists, you see, are always willing to revise their best estimates when they get new information.

Well then I would say it's safe to assume that the global warming theories may be revised. While only a few months has passed for the hurricane predictions to be revised, we have literally years, maybe decades to revise our global warming predictions. Heck, weather predictions are revised everytime the weatherman comes on! (Otherwise, we'd watch him only once a week!)

So while you try and make a strong point by insulting imprippinit and myself, you grossly underestimated the magnitude of your own statement.

You also implore me to learn about science. Well I'll let you know that I'm a biomedical engineering major at the #1 college for undergraduate engineering. I base my beliefs on what people can prove, not how much money they want from me in order to plant a few trees. You may say that "people have given evidence that global warming exists". I submit that there is also evidence to contradict that and before we start shooting ourselves in the foot with taxes, carbon credits, and driving around in styrofoam cars that need to be recharged every 2 hours - let's find out what's really happening. You may say, "it'll be too late" if we continue to wait. I would submit that China and India and many other countries will not regulate themselves the way the US would, and we would therefore suffer economically. (The whole deal about tariffs in a free market economy never passed the smell test anyway, but that's for another thread).

Let's look at an example, shall we. DDT was determined to be harmful to the environment and was therefore banned. Know what happened? Michael Crichton stated it best:

I can tell you that DDT is not a carcinogen and did not cause birds to die and should never have been banned. I can tell you that the people who banned it knew that it wasn't carcinogenic and banned it anyway. I can tell you that the DDT ban has caused the deaths of tens of millions of poor people, mostly children, whose deaths are directly attributable to a callous, technologically advanced western society that promoted the new cause of environmentalism by pushing a fantasy about a pesticide, and thus irrevocably harmed the third world. Banning DDT is one of the most disgraceful episodes in the twentieth century history of America. We knew better, and we did it anyway, and we let people around the world die and didn't give a damn.

The similarity to global warming is when we begin to ban everyday things - cars, lightbulbs, gasoline, air travel, tangerines, on and on until you get really crazy. Everyone cannot afford to purchase carbon credits, and everyone cannot afford to purchase energy alternatives. So while we would make ourselves feel better because we helped the environment. The poor would either a) not be able to afford these things and go without or b) live in a country that allowed them and "undo" any attempts by us anyways.

All I'm saying is we better be damn sure before I start paying anything from my paycheck to go towards global warming. In fact, you can do whatever you want, just don't include me. Got it?

Wise up...

Edit: spelling

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by valis

there is significant proof for evolution in just about every aspect of life on this planet. There is zero for creationism. Bit of a problem there.

Still don't understand the "To say that the the tree rings and ice cores are only contributable to CO2 caused by humans is ignorant of the many possibilites out there." part. Obviously you meant something different, as tree rings and ice cores do not contribute, per se, but actually record C02 levels and other environmental input.

There is no doubt that global warming is occurring; the debate right now is how much of it is anthropogenic. One cannot objectively look at the evidence and state that it is not warming.

While I agree that the planet is NOT facing a crisis, I think you are overlooking something here; there IS a crisis, but it is we who are facing it, not the planet. The planet has been through a plethora of cycles in it's life, and it will remain long after we are gone.

News flash!

Southern Europe bakes in year's hottest weather
published: Thursday | July 26, 2007


ATHENS, Greece (AP):

Southern Europe sweltered through some of the year's hottest weather yesterday as the second major heat wave in a month sparked yet more forest fires and had power officials scrambling to avert a repeat of Tuesday's widespread blackouts in the western Balkans.

The heat has claimed at least 33 lives in Romania.

Many thousands of hectares (acres) of forest land have been torched in Italy, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Greece. The fires ignited in tinderbox conditions worsened by last winter's extended drought. Arson is suspected in many cases and several people have been arrested. Forests in Serbia have also been ravaged.

....http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/glean.../int/int3.html

[bryantms]

Originally Posted by bassetman

News flash!

Southern Europe bakes in year's hottest weather
published: Thursday | July 26, 2007


ATHENS, Greece (AP):

Southern Europe sweltered through some of the year's hottest weather yesterday as the second major heat wave in a month sparked yet more forest fires and had power officials scrambling to avert a repeat of Tuesday's widespread blackouts in the western Balkans.

The heat has claimed at least 33 lives in Romania.

Many thousands of hectares (acres) of forest land have been torched in Italy, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Greece. The fires ignited in tinderbox conditions worsened by last winter's extended drought. Arson is suspected in many cases and several people have been arrested. Forests in Serbia have also been ravaged.

....http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/glean.../int/int3.html

Well you've done it, you've convinced me! Global warming MUST be real...

/sarcasm

Record cold in June
Queensland breaks cold weather record
Cold winter bites into supermarket budget
British Rains Slow Recovery as Areas Remain Flooded
Flooding in China's west
Southern Texas Still Under Flood Warning

Just because there is drought in one area of the world doesn't mean other areas aren't experiencing floods. The same goes for temperatures. The fact that you are trying to simplify something as complex as the environment is jaw-dropping.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by bryantms

Well you've done it, you've convinced me! Global warming MUST be real...

/sarcasm

Record cold in June
Queensland breaks cold weather record
Cold winter bites into supermarket budget
British Rains Slow Recovery as Areas Remain Flooded
Flooding in China's west
Southern Texas Still Under Flood Warning

Just because there is drought in one area of the world doesn't mean other areas aren't experiencing floods. The same goes for temperatures. The fact that you are trying to simplify something as complex as the environment is jaw-dropping.

Not sure I want credit for opening your eyes!

[bryantms]

Originally Posted by bassetman

Not sure I want credit for opening your eyes!

Oh right, because it's obvious that this global warming is causing all of this to happen. Yes - let's blame it on carbon. We are conceited enough to understand the complexities of the world's environment, and blame on CO2, which is needed by plant life. Oh, and let's go further and say that we can be sure that humans are the primary cause (even though cow farts even outweigh human "carbon footprints").

I've mentioned this many times before, but everything is being blamed on global warming these days:

Originally Posted by bryantms

Costa Rican Frog Die-Offs
Australian cockroach migration
Swedish beetle-infestation
Great Britain's puffin decline
A rise in hay fever
Staff shortages at Bulgarian brothels
Deadly serious outbreaks of Malaria, Dengue Fever, West Nile Virus and Cholera
The killer Indian Ocean tsunami
Even the Lake Tahoe wildfires

(for links to these go here)

Come to think of it, I'm feeling kind of tired lately. I think it may be my body trying to counteract the planet's warming effects. Hehe, I can't wait for that study...

[bill.aam]

Originally Posted by bassetman

News flash!

Southern Europe bakes in year's hottest weather
published: Thursday | July 26, 2007


ATHENS, Greece (AP):

Southern Europe sweltered through some of the year's hottest weather yesterday as the second major heat wave in a month sparked yet more forest fires and had power officials scrambling to avert a repeat of Tuesday's widespread blackouts in the western Balkans.

The heat has claimed at least 33 lives in Romania.

Many thousands of hectares (acres) of forest land have been torched in Italy, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Greece. The fires ignited in tinderbox conditions worsened by last winter's extended drought. Arson is suspected in many cases and several people have been arrested. Forests in Serbia have also been ravaged.

....http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/glean.../int/int3.html

News Flash!

Peru cold snap kills 70 children

At least 70 children have died during a spell of freezing weather in the Andean regions of Peru, officials have said.

The children, all under five years old, died of pneumonia and other respiratory illnesses over the past three months.

They lived in rural areas at high altitude, where temperatures in some cases are reported to have plummeted to as low as -20C (-4F).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6916717.stm

[valis]

and as I stated before, I'm quite certain that most of what is on your list IS related to global warming. You seem to be continuously overlooking the complexity of the entire system, as I've stated before. A change in 'A' will result in a change in 'Z' at some point in time; the question is, what will that change be?

[imrippinit]

Sometimes building theories using science as a basis requires alot of faith. Which explains why "Man Made Global Warming" is the official religion of the Liberal progressives.

NOAA: LAS VEGAS TEMPS DOWN SINCE 1940S...