[katonca]

Hi all, couple have asked about the "porn" in libraries situation. Here are a couple of links to enlighten the subject. I know a couple of public libraries in our area are/were having a serious problem.

http://www.safelibraries.org/

http://www.plan2succeed.org/grassroots/

[katonca]

Originally Posted by Wino

Consider myself a moderate, but can live with 'liberal' title. Do not profess to be a christian, do not believe in a god, but based on the scorn and content in your post, I do believe I'm a better 'christian' in the sense of the word.

I was asking the question of those "liberals" (poilitical or non-political individuals) who also profess to be "Christians", not the run of the mill "liberal" who is not a "believer".

I also fail to see scorn or content in my original post but merely a simple question possed to the opposite pov.

[katonca]

Originally Posted by iltos

hi ya katonca....no smilie in that quote of yours, but you don't really put the leftist "fringe" just left of center, do ya?

Hi iltos

I wasn't saying that the fringe included the "just left of center" folks. I meant that some that are "just left of center" also feel the same way as those on the fringe (concerning some issues).

coupla things come to mind....and one of them may just be my ignorance.....but religious leaders who are most media vocal -who attract the most attention from the media for their views- tend, imo, to be the most intolerant....those who will telll you EXACTLY what god says about this or that, hold it up as a litmus test of your "religion", and judge you based on your responses as tho they were themselves god .

Being a good leader of a religion must be a tough job. They know what has been written concerning sin/tolerance/intolerance but being a man/women they are not perfect and also have their own shortcomings.

there is, to me, the sense of "free will" being one big mistake in their eyes, of having to "fix" that problem somehow, for the betterment of our society.

I do believe that a religion/government/society will rise and fall on it's beliefs and that the leaders do have an obligation to "fix" the probs the best they know how

on the liberal side....i don't see a lot of religious leaders making the same kind of public display of their views.....i CAN find a lot of those views if i want to....but they are not in my face....and they tend not to judge me.....instead, they tend to ask me to choose what is best for me, vis a vis abortion, sexuality, and all the rest of it.

[WarC]

Are Islamonuts Muslims?

Are Klan members Protestant?

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by katonca

...................

I also fail to see scorn or content in my original post but merely a simple question possed to the opposite pov.

Do you think neoconservatism and liberalism are on the same level of extremism?
I hadn't thought so, myself.

Are you a neoconservative?

[WarC]

Originally Posted by Stoner

Do you think neoconservatism and liberalism on the same level of extremism?
I hadn't thought so, myself.

Oh, oh, oh, pick me pick me!

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by WarC

Oh, oh, oh, pick me pick me!

[linskyjack]

Originally Posted by katonca

I was asking the question of those "liberals" (poilitical or non-political individuals) who also profess to be "Christians", not the run of the mill "liberal" who is not a "believer".

I also fail to see scorn or content in my original post but merely a simple question possed to the opposite pov.

First of all, how do you know that the run of the mill liberal isn't a "believer" Thats utter nonsense. The vast majority of "liberals" are believers. They just don't believe that Christ was a war mongering materialist.

[Stoner]

Jerry Falwell once wrote an article for WDN......."God is pro-war "

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...TICLE_ID=36859

[iltos]

Originally Posted by katonca

here's my problem then.....if it makes relgious folks sad when free choice is exercised and encouraged, it suggests to me that free will IS considered to be truely a mistake.....this sets up a system where religious leaders can indeed "have a tough job" and are seemingly forced into a situation (depending on their vision, i guess, of what religion means in the world of god) that separates people into two classes based on their judegement....

this, in and of itself, seems unchristain....both you and LAN are very consistent in your efforts to point out that nobody's perfect

should religious leaders, then, be assigned the task of identifing who is "more perfect", and who is less?
i think not....yet this does seem to be the point of many who share a conservative political view.

the crux of the whole free will arguement, it seems to me, is understanding...the same kind of understanding that allows children to grow and take responsibility for their actions over time

this maybe another part of the answer to your question....liberal theologians seem to understand this growth process much more than conservative ones, who seemed heavilty steeped into sheparding -not just their flock, but everyone who doesn't pass their litmus test.....

[katonca]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

First of all, how do you know that the run of the mill liberal isn't a "believer" Thats utter nonsense. The vast majority of "liberals" are believers. They just don't believe that Christ was a war mongering materialist.

Here, how about I change my quote to make it as clear as possible:

I was asking the question of those "liberals" (poilitical or non-political individuals) who also profess to be "Christians", not the "liberal" who isn't a "believer"

[katonca]

Originally Posted by iltos

here's my problem then.....if it makes relgious folks sad when free choice is exercised and encouraged, it suggests to me that free will IS considered to be truely a mistake.....this sets up a system where religious leaders can indeed "have a tough job" and are seemingly forced into a situation (depending on their vision, i guess, of what religion means in the world of god) that separates people into two classes based on their judegement....

this, in and of itself, seems unchristain....both you and LAN are very consistent in your efforts to point out that nobody's perfect

should religious leaders, then, be assigned the task of identifing who is "more perfect", and who is less?
i think not....yet this does seem to be the point of many who share a conservative political view.

the crux of the whole free will arguement, it seems to me, is understanding...the same kind of understanding that allows children to grow and take responsibility for their actions over time

this maybe another part of the answer to your question....liberal theologians seem to understand this growth process much more than conservative ones, who seemed heavilty steeped into sheparding -not just their flock, but everyone who doesn't pass their litmus test.....

I'm not sure where the disagreement is. Free will is fine (it's what alot of religions are based on - mine also) but that doesn't mean rules are not in place for you to follow. As an example, the law says you stop at a red light but since there isn't anyone/anything stopping you from going through the light, you exercise free will and do. The law is clear, that's a $36.72 fine when caught. The law is also clear as it pertains to religious commandments. Break the law and blessings associated with keeping that commandment are withheld.

Maybe I misread something....if I did, my apologies

[anwthan-a]

And there was I thinking it might be a wind-up Katonca...truly shocking.

[poochee]

Originally Posted by katonca

I was asking the question of those "liberals" (poilitical or non-political individuals) who also profess to be "Christians", not the run of the mill "liberal" who is not a "believer".

I also fail to see scorn or content in my original post but merely a simple question possed to the opposite pov.

Your post was not offensive.

I'll put my two cents worth in here.

In the past, I have been royally harassed because I am a Christian Democrat and was labeled as a liberal. (Harassment will only cement my opinion).

But to the close minded you can't be a Christian because of certain issues. One of them being abortion. As far as abortion is concerned, IMO, it has always been here and, sadly, always will be due to the life styles some people live, both men and women. And those people in the closet that won't tell you they are pro-choice. I prefer to use my energy on other issues where something may be accomplished. I now proudly carry the label of "liberal".

[poochee]

Originally Posted by katonca

I'm not sure where the disagreement is. Free will is fine (it's what alot of religions are based on - mine also) but that doesn't mean rules are not in place for you to follow. As an example, the law says you stop at a red light but since there isn't anyone/anything stopping you from going through the light, you exercise free will and do. The law is clear, that's a $36.72 fine when caught. The law is also clear as it pertains to religious commandments. Break the law and blessings associated with keeping that commandment are withheld.

Maybe I misread something....if I did, my apologies