[iltos]

Originally Posted by Chicon

Hi BF,

I still bear in mind that lady gorilla using a giant leave as a napkin.

Technology, an evolutionary force : I'm not sure but I prefer Technology, the resulting force of an evolved species.

but that brings us back to the benefit of intellect as a selected adaptation....that certainly qualifies as an evolutionary force....could it be argued that its benefit is to give evolution direction? (i'd imagine that intelligent design people would love that)

in that case, technology would just be one possible direction...maybe not even the best....

every adaptation carries with it the risk of failure

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

But it's basically the same thing, isn't it? When man first started using tools, I imagine they were stone tools, picked up off the ground, like a chimp does with a stick. Then man discovered they'd be more usefull if he shaped them or chipped them. (For that matter, perhaps even chimps alter the sticks they use in some way.)

Probably didn't take long to start looking for the best place to find the most usefull rocks, which would have eventually led to mining technology, the bronze age, etc. Take that process to it's natural end and we end up synthesising elements that don't(or can't) exist in nature, like the heaviest ones on the Periodic table.

So it looks like nothing more than a matter of degree.

This reminds me of that old discussion we had about Stanley Kubrik's 2001, A Space Oddysey.

I think that better chronicles the development of man's intellect.
The chimp, and what appears to be the rest of the animal kingdom, is stuck implementing what is at hand while man invents, from his mind, that which we call technology.
Evolution appears to have favored man in this regard and man is now diverted from the 'rules' of natural selection that shaped us. We now influence our own 'shape' as we
contemplate what is of benefit.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

I'm guessing back then, a picture painted far fewer words than it does today.

was going back over this thread...missed this

my first thought was just to agree....because language is so much more developed, and so many of us now share a common world view....or at least different ones that have a common mantle beneath them

but then i step back in time 50,000 years and i look at that picture of an elk...and i see a REPRESENTATION of something, something that is an elk, but is not an elk.... and the drawing is something that didn't even exist 2 minutes ago, and i am faced with the experience of its meaning, and the experience of the person who put it up on that wall, and the experiences of meaning that it has for others.

and suddenly i am among the first animals on this planet to have reached through the smoke of instinctual behavior and to be burned by the fire of intellect.

maybe that's the point where words (.....yeah, well....sounds, at least) started to take on worldview kinds of importance.

[valis]

Originally Posted by Stoner

I think that better chronicles the development of man's intellect.
The chimp, and what appears to be the rest of the animal kingdom, is stuck implementing what is at hand while man invents, from his mind, that which we call technology.
Evolution appears to have favored man in this regard and man is now diverted from the 'rules' of natural selection that shaped us. We now influence our own 'shape' as we
contemplate what is of benefit.

at some point in time, we were all in trees. Some of us still are, for that matter. Then some of us came down from trees onto the savannah. Well, that grass was rather high, and that sort of forced us to raise our head now and again to make sure nothing was sneaking up on us. Pretty soon, we were more or less fully bipedal. That freed our hands to begin tool manipulation, which began a spiral; one tool invented, brain sees another implementation for said tool if you just add this widget here, and now you've got a two function tool, that requires a bit more oomph upstairs to carry out. Brain literally explodes over a very short period of time, resulting in two major factors:

1. Tool implementaion and complexity grew very, very rapidly.

2. The larger cranial size meant that birth became a rather difficult engineering process, akin to passing a bowling ball through a lightly greased straw.

Result? Lots of deaths, both mom and baby. Solution? Shorten the gestation period to get the baby out earlier. Deleterious effects? We now have a baby who is utterly and completely unable to care for themself, whereas a thousand or hundred thousand generations before, they came out ready to go. So we now have outer-womb raising, akin to the marsupials, only without the snot-filled pouch.

Upside, that gave us even more room in the cranium. Result?

Wheel of Fortune. Seriously. What does Vanna put on her resume? Smiles, claps, touches letters.

[Gabriel]

But is it merely intellect of the mind that does all this?
As Valis points out, a lot of body modification has gone on too, perhaps.
Also, if we are no longer animal, then there is more than mere adaptation of genes....what I am saying is if we have changed into higher beings from a lower state of being, don't we perhaps now have spirit, or soul that truely has purpose and possibility of growth?

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by valis

Upside, that gave us even more room in the cranium. Result?

Wheel of Fortune. Seriously. What does Vanna put on her resume? Smiles, claps, touches letters.

Maybe this is why celebrities need "agents".

Originally Posted by iltos

... and suddenly i am among the first animals on this planet to have reached through the smoke of instinctual behavior and to be burned by the fire of intellect.

maybe that's the point where words (.....yeah, well....sounds, at least) started to take on worldview kinds of importance.

And then ... there was Vanna White. Thank God we didn't let it go to waste, eh?

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by Gabriel

But is it merely intellect of the mind that does all this?
As Valis points out, a lot of body modification has gone on too, perhaps.
Also, if we are no longer animal, then there is more than mere adaptation of genes....what I am saying is if we have changed into higher beings from a lower state of being, don't we perhaps now have spirit, or soul that truely has purpose and possibility of growth?

Or maybe animals have souls as well? They evolved too.

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

Or maybe animals have souls as well? They evolved too.

Maybe...

[pyritechips]

Souls? I deny such an entity. Define a soul. Show me one. Prove that a human (God's protegé) has a soul and any other animal does not.

I think what has happened here is that the "soul" of Biblical fame has come to represent the infusion of God into his physical incarnation on Earth. It is a wonderful sentiment, if you believe in God. The believe of a superior being has always been an obsticale in the pursuit of knowledge.

[Gabriel]

I am looking at it from the perspective of evolving from an animal into a human.....territory unreached and such...... It isn't meant to be an argument itself...just an angle.
And who says I'm using it in your frame of reference anyway?

[Gabriel]

Oh, and I certainly never said animals don't have souls.....

[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by pyritechips

Souls? I deny such an entity. Define a soul. Show me one. Prove that a human (God's protegé) has a soul and any other animal does not.

I think what has happened here is that the "soul" of Biblical fame has come to represent the infusion of God into his physical incarnation on Earth. It is a wonderful sentiment, if you believe in God. The believe of a superior being has always been an obsticale in the pursuit of knowledge.

May you mistake your Preparation H for Pepsodent.

Please, please, please take this post from here and move it to one of the "religion versus pseudo-science" threads.

I'll be back here in a week or so and I don't want to see some new member like imrippinit telling you to prove the non-existence of a soul.

Originally Posted by Gabriel

And who says I'm using it in your frame of reference anyway?

Yeah, what she said!

[iltos]

Originally Posted by valis

Well, that grass was rather high, and that sort of forced us to raise our head now and again to make sure nothing was sneaking up on us. Pretty soon, we were more or less fully bipedal. That freed our hands to begin tool manipulation, which began a spiral; one tool invented, brain sees another implementation for said tool if you just add this widget here, and now you've got a two function tool, that requires a bit more oomph upstairs to carry out. Brain literally explodes over a very short period of time, resulting in two major factors:

1. Tool implementaion and complexity grew very, very rapidly.

2. The larger cranial size meant that birth became a rather difficult engineering process, akin to passing a bowling ball through a lightly greased straw.

Result? Lots of deaths, both mom and baby. Solution? Shorten the gestation period to get the baby out earlier. Deleterious effects? We now have a baby who is utterly and completely unable to care for themself, whereas a thousand or hundred thousand generations before, they came out ready to go. So we now have outer-womb raising, akin to the marsupials, only without the snot-filled pouch.

Upside, that gave us even more room in the cranium.

nice train of thought ...gives caves (for protection -slash- nurseries for newborns) and all the rest some elegant place in the progression

Originally Posted by Gabriel

As Valis points out, a lot of body modification has gone on too, perhaps.
....what I am saying is if we have changed into higher beings from a lower state of being, don't we perhaps now have spirit, or soul that truely has purpose and possibility of growth?

i can't make that leap just yet....suffice it to say that intellect, having exploded on the scene, created possibilities limited only by our ability to manifest the convergence of observation and imagination (the elk on the wall), that intellect is responsible for both technology and yoga, and that both are developments in the organization of self

is that a world view that is different from the hawk, the platypus, or the elephant?

certainly

does it define the spritual nature of man?

i'll leave that up to you

but, again, and imo, if intelligent design afficinados pursued these same kinds of discussions, they might find something very appealing in the theory of evolution.

[LuckyStrike]

I wonder. Does any animal feel regret after killing another animal?

I am not an animal! I am a human being!

Elephant Man

[lotuseclat79]

Originally Posted by valis

...

Wheel of Fortune. Seriously. What does Vanna put on her resume? Smiles, claps, touches letters.

Hi valis,

Vanna's resume: Wheel of Fortune game show hostess with the mostess! Special talent in turning around lettered answers. Seeks advice column in local, regional or nationally syndicated newspaper.

-- Tom