[Ben1220]

Well, manners arent really thought of much, just accepted and generally forgotten once they has been inbuilt into our lives, but what are the purposes of manners?

Wikipedia says that the purpose of manners is to "ease the stress of communal living" and to "recognise the right of someone to share communal space" but do all of our manners achieve this or are some redundant? Perhaps we have gotten so used to them that we don't think about their purpose. Just think about how manners and etiquette change over time in different cultures, often behavior in one culture means a completely different thing in terms of manners, for example in some cultures it is considered bad manners not to burp after you eat, but in western society, burping is frowned apon, if the purpose of manners are so simple, then why do manners vary so much?

A great deal of our manners are passed on from generation to generation, often changing a little, sort of like language, and in the long term we loose track of the beginning purpose of them, does it really matter if you eat with a knife or a fork? At the end of the day, no matter how you eat it, the food will be in your stomach. Also about 400 years ago it was considered bad manners to eat with a knife and fork, if you eat with a knife and fork can you justify why or do you just do it because it is a social norm?

The way we conform to societies norms about manners is probably just a survival mechanism, if we agree with the majority then we are much less likely to make an enemy for instance. It is probably an innate part of the human psyche, however if we look at manners from a philosophical point of view alot of them dont really make life any easier for anyone.

Perhaps manners have become superficial and pointless and just become another way for humans to do what they do best, judge each other, perhaps in a world with much more serious problems to worry about, many common manners are no longer relevent. Perhaps we should re value which manners we abide by and which we don't, in terms of their purpose instead of just blindly accepting them all.

I hope you understand my ramble with the same clarity as I do...

[valley]

A good read. And yes, I did understand the bulk of it.

Thank you!

[bomb #21]

Originally Posted by Ben1220

... does it really matter if you eat with a knife or a fork? ...

If it's a bowl of soup, yes.

[poochee]

I think manners count. I'd hate to go to a restaurant (or home) and view people grabbing and eating with their hands. Viusaling!

Besides their hands may not be clean!

The knife, fork and spoons are specific to make it easy to eat. So why not use them appropriately?

[Bush Lady]

When people come to visit from Germany, they consider it good manners to shake hands when they great someone, or when they leave again.

[Dr. Chauncey]

In Russia and the US as well.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by Bush Lady

When people come to visit from Germany, they consider it good manners to shake hands when they great someone, or when they leave again.

Das ist true!

[rexgrant]

Hi
There was a saying here in the UK when I was young.(Mind your manners) as you say most of them as gone by the way, and that in my opinion is a loss to our western culture.
And as the world as now become accessible to most we should find out what other cultures require in the way of manners before visiting them. I think most of us would find it quite off putting in our favorite restaurant if the visitors on the next table were eating with their hands and slopping their drink from a bowl.
The only excuse for not following our culture in the way of good manners is the couldn't be bothered attitude of the younger generation.
Regards.
Rex.

[Ben1220]

Originally Posted by rexgrant

Hi
There was a saying here in the UK when I was young.(Mind your manners) as you say most of them as gone by the way, and that in my opinion is a loss to our western culture.
And as the world as now become accessible to most we should find out what other cultures require in the way of manners before visiting them. I think most of us would find it quite off putting in our favorite restaurant if the visitors on the next table were eating with their hands and slopping their drink from a bowl.
The only excuse for not following our culture in the way of good manners is the couldn't be bothered attitude of the younger generation.
Regards.
Rex.

The question isn't necesarily if we should be bothered to follow them, the question is why do we follow them? We shouldn't follow them just because they are there, of course you agree that this would be futile and that it would waste a massive amount of the worlds resources, and not to mention alot of our precious time.

Is there any reason to follow them? Why are we offended when people display bad manners, when if we scrutinize them (the manners) we see that not all of them actually help us (as in society in hole). Many people just follow all manners without giving them any thought, however if you can see a reason to follow a specific social norm then I think that is valid. As was pointed out before, knifes and forks are often used by people as they help them eat, and if they do help you eat then it is justifiyable by my standards that you use them, but what if it didnt help you eat? What if you found them irritating, in that case is there really any justifyable reason why you should eat with a knife and a fork? If you think about things logically for a minute it doesnt quite seem as simple as it is being implied...

[rexgrant]

Originally Posted by Ben1220

The question isn't necesarily if we should be bothered to follow them, the question is why do we follow them? We shouldn't follow them just because they are there, of course you agree that this would be futile and that it would waste a massive amount of the worlds resources, and not to mention alot of our precious time.

Is there any reason to follow them? Why are we offended when people display bad manners, when if we scrutinize them (the manners) we see that not all of them actually help us (as in society in hole). Many people just follow all manners without giving them any thought, however if you can see a reason to follow a specific social norm then I think that is valid. As was pointed out before, knifes and forks are often used by people as they help them eat, and if they do help you eat then it is justifiyable by my standards that you use them, but what if it didnt help you eat? What if you found them irritating, in that case is there really any justifyable reason why you should eat with a knife and a fork? If you think about things logically for a minute it doesnt quite seem as simple as it is being implied...

Hi Ben.
Precious time. don't waist time. I don't have time, this is what is wrong with society now in my opinion. The western world needs to slow down before it burns itself out. People who don't have manners tend to be uncouth and uncaring. What do you find wrong with people saying Pardon me, If they have just done something that is not considered acceptable at the table, in the country they are in at the time. or is time too precious to waste saying that, even though it may appease your fellow dinners.
Regards.
Rex

[bomb #21]

Originally Posted by Ben1220

... As was pointed out before, knifes and forks are often used by people as they help them eat, and if they do help you eat then it is justifiyable by my standards that you use them, but what if it didnt help you eat? What if you found them irritating, in that case is there really any justifyable reason why you should eat with a knife and a fork? If you think about things logically for a minute it doesnt quite seem as simple as it is being implied...

Googled "Table manners" & found "many table manners evolved out of practicality", which sums up some of what you're saying. You don't need utensils to eat burger & chips, and I doubt that establishments purveying said culinary delicacy could even supply them.

Similarly, a great British tradition is eating (fried in batter) fish and chips (US = "fries") out of paper, no utensils needed although a small wooden fork may or may not be used for the chips.

I'd heard that the Yanks hold their forks in their right, but do they really do this?

Eating aside, some behaviours that were formerly frowned upon for no practical reason have come to be acceptable over time. For example, a woman in the UK can now smoke and/or show her ankles in public without (too much) fear of being beaten to death for her sins by an angry mob.

HTH

[poochee]

Originally Posted by bomb #21

Googled "Table manners" & found "many table manners evolved out of practicality", which sums up some of what you're saying. You don't need utensils to eat burger & chips, and I doubt that establishments purveying said culinary delicacy could even supply them.

Similarly, a great British tradition is eating (fried in batter) fish and chips (US = "fries") out of paper, no utensils needed although a small wooden fork may or may not be used for the chips.

I'd heard that the Yanks hold their forks in their right, but do they really do this?

Eating aside, some behaviours that were formerly frowned upon for no practical reason have come to be acceptable over time. For example, a woman in the UK can now smoke and/or show her ankles in public without (too much) fear of being beaten to death for her sins by an angry mob.

HTH

I read the link..and found I do most of what is listed there. I even put the fork down while chewing, why hold it? However, I like to eat slowly and enjoy.

I do cut more than one piece of meat, but not the whole portion at once. Also, rolls....break off one piece at a time, butter then eat.

Of course this is modified when eating fasts foods like burgers, chips, etc.

[SlackAli]

Originally Posted by Ben1220

The way we conform to societies norms about manners is probably just a survival mechanism, if we agree with the majority then we are much less likely to make an enemy for instance. It is probably an innate part of the human psyche, however if we look at manners from a philosophical point of view alot of them dont really make life any easier for anyone.

Really? Maybe the construction of codes of conduct over long periods is just a civilising mechanism, which may make life slightly more difficult for individuals who reject any inhibition on what they perceive to be their right to behave as they wish, but which does make life just a bit more bearable for society as a whole.

I was going to raise the obvious point of irony about an Australian starting a thread on manners, but I'm far too polite

[bomb #21]

Originally Posted by poochee

I read the link..and found I do most of what is listed there. I even put the fork down while chewing, why hold it? ...

Because if someone makes a move for your food before you've finished, you have something to stab them with.

[poochee]

Originally Posted by bomb #21

Because if someone makes a move for your food before you've finished, you have something to stab them with.