[plschwartz]

Middle-Class Dream Eludes African American Families
Many Blacks Worse off Than Their Parents, Study Says

By Michael A. Fletcher
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 13, 2007; Page A01

Nearly half of African Americans born to middle-income parents in the late 1960s plunged into poverty or near-poverty as adults, according to a new study -- a perplexing finding that analysts say highlights the fragile nature of middle-class life for many African Americans.

Overall, family incomes have risen for both blacks and whites over the past three decades. But in a society where the privileges of class and income most often perpetuate themselves from generation to generation, black Americans have had more difficulty than whites in transmitting those benefits to their children.

rest at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

I guess some here will lame the white power structure, while others will gloat at the limits of Affirmative Action.
Or is it that Ghettoiztion of the black community youth has replaced the upwardly mobile dream?

[johnnyburst79]

There is a saying that has prevailed since the beginning of the 1900's. "From shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations."

Basically, no matter how poor you start out as or how rich you become, the subsequent two generations can decimate your family economic status in two generations. For the middle class, it is even more precarious.

[WarC]

I truly think that we fail to prepare young adults for life in the 21st century. Also, the cost of living climbs, while income stagnates. The cost of education after highschool is also skyrocketing, while "education inflation" means the same degree is worth much less, in terms of pay scale and career advancement, than it once was.

Thus it is getting harder and harder for a lower middleclass teen to "make it" without a strong economic dependency on their parents. We take them from the relative safety and incubation of public school life, and then drop them off to fend for themselves in the real world, with very little actual direction education concerning real life worries, like money, or debt, or career counseling. Then we pile on boatloads of consumer and student debt on them...For their educations, for the car that is basically necessity, for the rent that they must pay...etc.

It is not a black/white issue, but it is seen as "more obvious" in the black community arguably because of the perception that the "hip hop culture" carries. And because, probably, a greater proportion of African Americans live in poverty or the lower class than do WASPs.

[LuckyStrike]

Nation wide more than 70% of black children are born out of wedlock. Within large cities the figure is closer to 95%. When the typical black child is raised in a single parent household, headed by a young women with minimal education, no father figure, .... what else should you expect?

[TooBad]

Originally Posted by plschwartz

rest at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

I guess some here will lame the white power structure, while others will gloat at the limits of Affirmative Action.
Or is it that Ghettoiztion of the black community youth has replaced the upwardly mobile dream?

I believe that your last statement may be closer to the truth. As long as minorities are told that they are not good enough to make it on their own and that the government "owes" them a certain standard of living, there will be no incentive to work hard for the same or less than the slugs doing nothing and being paid for it.

[plschwartz]

Originally Posted by LuckyStrike

Nation wide more than 70% of black children are born out of wedlock. Within large cities the figure is closer to 95%. When the typical black child is raised in a single parent household, headed by a young women with minimal education, no father figure, .... what else should you expect?

These are kids with parents already in the middle class and they fall out of it.

BTW where do you get those figures?

[ckphilli]

I apologize if this seems like an oversimplification, but you've got to want it to get it. Numerous programs are available. Numerous schools are available online to accommodate working students. The problem is drive, in my opinion.

I agree with WarC, I don't think this is a black and white issue.

So what if you aren't born with a silver spoon. That means you will incur debt, no way around it. It's up to the individual to persevere to alleviate the debt, eventually. Even if he or she has to take a higher interest rate for a car and pile up a ton of student debt...it's what has to be done. Work, school, then play.

Can't find a decent paying job to pay for the car and rent? Get two.
Don't want two? Get in the military.
Don't want to do that either? Cry about your life.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular.

[katonca]

Originally Posted by ckphilli

I apologize if this seems like an oversimplification, but you've got to want it to get it. Numerous programs are available. Numerous schools are available online to accommodate working students. The problem is drive, in my opinion.

I agree with WarC, I don't think this is a black and white issue.

So what if you aren't born with a silver spoon. That means you will incur debt, no way around it. It's up to the individual to persevere to alleviate the debt, eventually. Even if he or she has to take a higher interest rate for a car and pile up a ton of student debt...it's what has to be done. Work, school, then play.

Can't find a decent paying job to pay for the car and rent? Get two.
Don't want two? Get in the military.
Don't want to do that either? Cry about your life.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular.

Hi Chris

While I'm here I throw my 2 cents in.

I think expectaions aren't high enough when the kids are in school. Friends, parents, and teachers must expect more from the kids. This goes for all kids (white or black).

Also, I think there are to many social programs that reward being below average. My niece is an able bodied 19 year old with a baby and no husband. She is living on a number of programs w/o any change of circumstance in sight. These programs are great but somehow they need to help these kids to realize there is something better out there.

[ckphilli]

Originally Posted by katonca

Hi Chris

While I'm here I throw my 2 cents in.

I think expectaions aren't high enough when the kids are in school. Friends, parents, and teachers must expect more from the kids. This goes for all kids (white or black).

Also, I think there are to many social programs that reward being below average. My niece is an able bodied 19 year old with a baby and no husband. She is living on a number of programs w/o any change of circumstance in sight. These programs are great but somehow they need to help these kids to realize there is something better out there.

Hi Dave, nice to see you

I couldn't agree more about the expectations. I think we "coddle" our children. I know I don't have to tell you that I'm a gentle, caring parent. But I don't baby my boy. I expect the best from him. If he fails, so what. Try again.

I do think some programs make people too comfortable in their situation. I'm not saying this is your niece, as I have no idea of her situation...so no offense intended. And comfortable may not be the right word. As you stated, they should accompany the aid with guidance...but not optional guidance.

The fact is...in my opinion...some people will always want a handout. They expect help, even when they are a single, able bodied individual. They don't understand that work is the key; in employment and education. And, I refuse to put all the blame on the parents in this situation because I've seen some stellar individuals with bad parents.

I know I sound judgmental, but so be it.

[LuckyStrike]

Originally Posted by plschwartz

These are kids with parents already in the middle class and they fall out of it.

BTW where do you get those figures?

I read them somewhere, probably in a book, maybe in one of Star Parker's books, or one of Tony Brown's books, I don't remember where. But googling for Black illegitimacy rates it is not hard to find the information.

The black illegitimacy rate is close to 70 percent

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=29721

P.S. Concerning my statement about the 95% figure within large cities, apon reflection I think that might have been the rate of black children who will live in a single parent household at some point in their lives. Googling for the numbers, I found a figure of 85% black illegitimacy rate for New York city for an example. Add to that the number of black children who will live in a single parent household as a consequence of divorce/separation, imprisonment of a parent, death of a parent, or abandonment, and the 95% figure seems reasonable.

[WarC]

Originally Posted by ckphilli

I apologize if this seems like an oversimplification, but you've got to want it to get it. Numerous programs are available. Numerous schools are available online to accommodate working students. The problem is drive, in my opinion.

I agree with WarC, I don't think this is a black and white issue.

So what if you aren't born with a silver spoon. That means you will incur debt, no way around it. It's up to the individual to persevere to alleviate the debt, eventually. Even if he or she has to take a higher interest rate for a car and pile up a ton of student debt...it's what has to be done. Work, school, then play.

Can't find a decent paying job to pay for the car and rent? Get two.
Don't want two? Get in the military.
Don't want to do that either? Cry about your life.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular.

Yup, thats where we are at. And for every individual that "makes it", how many will go into unrecoverable debt, declare bankruptcy, end up in prison, or end up homeless?

At the very best, most of these kids are hoping to maintain their existence. It kills drive and ambition, and feeds discontentment. It's a microcosm of the effect that poor oppertunities has on middle class youth in the Middle East...They get angry, and look for causes or a sense of belonging.

Where do you turn when your credit is in the hole, your job pays you below the poverty line, and you car just broke down? That kills hope.

I know many young folks around my age whose only goal in life, literally, is to get wasted every weekend...They see no hope for advancement, they see no light at the end of the tunnel, they just see debt and more problems. They can't get the proper education to advance because they don't have the time, the money, or the credit...and at a certain point you can't recover from that. On top of that, many don't even know what they'd go to school for if they could...They're utterly directionless besides what society tells them through fashion or pop culture..."Be a gangster!" "Bling bling!" "Rollin' on 22's!" "Expensive shoes = Phat!" "Pack Heat, Don't take disrespect!"

As this economy continues to falter, and our currency continues to fall in value, this problem is only going to be compounded. At some point we may even have to take a serious look at drastically increasing government assistance for students, or even universal education.

There is no more "American Dream" - the white picket fence, the two story house - that is reserved for "Member's Only", the youth of today whose parents could afford to put them through university on their own dime, and then successfully translate that into a viable career after graduation, something which is also getting harder due to the "education inflation" I mentioned...IMO the middle class in this country is a dying breed...I think over the next few generations, a lot of families are going to move up or down that ladder. Most, down.

[katonca]

Originally Posted by ckphilli

Hi Dave, nice to see you

I couldn't agree more about the expectations. I think we "coddle" our children. I know I don't have to tell you that I'm a gentle, caring parent. But I don't baby my boy. I expect the best from him. If he fails, so what. Try again.

I do think some programs make people too comfortable in their situation. I'm not saying this is your niece, as I have no idea of her situation...so no offense intended. And comfortable may not be the right word. As you stated, they should accompany the aid with guidance...but not optional guidance.

The fact is...in my opinion...some people will always want a handout. They expect help, even when they are a single, able bodied individual. They don't understand that work is the key; in employment and education. And, I refuse to put all the blame on the parents in this situation because I've seen some stellar individuals with bad parents.

I know I sound judgmental, but so be it.

Hi Chris

I know you're a genuine, caring parent, that only wants the best for your child. And I say bravo for parents like you and your wife. I wish some folks could set aside their agendas and place more emphasis on raising their children.

You basically nailed my niece. She is comfortable in her lifestyle and w/o guidance (or prodding) she'll remain this way for some time. Within the system (some people) have their hope snatched away and find it hard to have self-esteem. At least, this is what I have seen from numerous people.

[linskyjack]

What do you expect. You enslave a people, free them, but really continue to enslave a good portion of them with Jim Crow and perpetual debt. Sometime in the 1960's you decide that yeah, the Civil War didn't do it so now you legislate equality, but unfortunately the black community is way behind the white community due to the brief but succinct history mentioned above.

Anyone who says this is not a black white thing denies the very obvious.

1. Not until the 1960's have blacks actually had equal rights.
2. By then, most power and wealth was accumulated by the white elite, and they have handed that down from generation to generation.
3. The institutions of slavery and neo-slavery (Jim Crow) did major damage to the black family.
4. The ghettoizing of blacks began with slavery and continues today.

You beat people down beginning in 1602---continue to beat them down straight up into the 1960's and then you wonder why they trail the nation in education, wealth etc. Hopefully in another 100 years the foul stench of the American curse will finally subside.

Racism is the only logical explanation of why children of the black middle class fall back down.

[poochee]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

What do you expect. You enslave a people, free them, but really continue to enslave a good portion of them with Jim Crow and perpetual debt. Sometime in the 1960's you decide that yeah, the Civil War didn't do it so now you legislate equality, but unfortunately the black community is way behind the white community due to the brief but succinct history mentioned above.

Anyone who says this is not a black white thing denies the very obvious.

1. Not until the 1960's have blacks actually had equal rights.
2. By then, most power and wealth was accumulated by the white elite, and they have handed that down from generation to generation.
3. The institutions of slavery and neo-slavery (Jim Crow) did major damage to the black family.
4. The ghettoizing of blacks began with slavery and continues today.

You beat people down beginning in 1602---continue to beat them down straight up into the 1960's and then you wonder why they trail the nation in education, wealth etc. Hopefully in another 100 years the foul stench of the American curse will finally subside.

Racism is the only logical explanation of why children of the black middle class fall back down.

A good history lesson. Short and to the point!

[ckphilli]

Originally Posted by WarC

Yup, thats where we are at. And for every individual that "makes it", how many will go into unrecoverable debt, declare bankruptcy, end up in prison, or end up homeless?

I would hope that after a four year degree they would know how to get themselves out of debt. And, I don't think it's insurmountable. Let's run some numbers...

4 yrs at Penn State = 46584
A cheap, reliable new car that can last...say a Civic = 15000
A credit card maxed at 5000.

Total debt at graduation = 66584. This doesn't take into account interest or payments made on the car for four years. Let's just assume the individual had bad credit and is still in the hole. Also, this doesn't take Pell Grants, scholarships and the like into account. I don't think 66 grand is insurmountable at 22 or 23 years old.

I agree that the focus is incorrect, and that gets back to what I was saying about drive. If the individuals insist on fancy vehicles instead of reliable transportation and run up more credit cards because they want the latest Playstation...yes, it could become insurmountable.

Hate to be a cynic, but I don't see this changing...I see it getting worse.