[iltos]

from the nytimes today
http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/?th&emc=th

yes, its a blog on the nytimes site....but the quotes that follow were all written by the author of a piece -an opinion piece, looks like- in the times back in december, based on a report issued by the New York State Commission on higher education

Originally Posted by Stanley Fish

In the final paragraph of my last column, I observed that the report of the New York State Commission on Higher Education slights – indeed barely mentions – the arts and humanities, despite the wide-ranging scope of its proposals.

Mr. Fish goes on to itemize some reasons for "the humanities not being a significant part" of "a brave new world in New York higher education" that were posted in the blog (pretty interesting actually, if this topic is interesting to you)

he then generalizes those reasons into a concensus (an accurate one, imo)

.....the issue they implicitly raise is justification. How does one justify funding the arts and humanities?

and this -the idea of justification- is perhaps the central issue in today's world (bias about the humanities being some sort of book of the dead for "liberal thought" aside ....let's try to keep THAT out of THIS, ok? )

it shouldn't be too hard to do, because justification, imo, is all about the return on investment in today's world of higher education....and the author, too, makes this clear

You can’t argue that a state’s economy will benefit by a new reading of “Hamlet.”

and

You can’t argue – well you can, but it won’t fly – that a graduate who is well-versed in the history of Byzantine art will be attractive to employers (unless the employer is a museum)

at the same time, tho, he brings up this historical perspective which asks a different kind of question about "justification"

At one time justification of the arts and humanities was unnecessary because, as Anthony Kronman puts it in a new book, “Education’s End: Why Our Colleges and Universities Have Given Up on the Meaning of Life,” it was assumed that “a college was above all a place for the training of character, for the nurturing of those intellectual and moral habits that together from the basis for living the best life one can.”

i don't know enough history to comment on this one way or the other...but "intellectual and moral habits" struck a chord with me

Mr. Fish has a comment about Kronman's book, tho

It is to a version of this old ideal that Kronman would have us return, not because of a professional investment in the humanities (he is a professor of law and a former dean of the Yale Law School), but because he believes that only the humanities can address “the crisis of spirit we now confront” and “restore the wonder which those who have glimpsed the human condition have always felt, and which our scientific civilization, with its gadgets and discoveries, obscures.”

As this last quotation makes clear, Kronman is not so much mounting a defense of the humanities as he is mounting an attack on everything else.

personally, i feel Mr. Fish's bias is apparent here....imo, Kronan is not attacking technology per se, he's taking note of what others have already noted -and the song is sung among religious fundamentalists, those complacent about politics, and those who criticize the media for its edutainment, the electonic world for its addictiveness, and globalization for the threat it poses to "our way of life"....among others....in general terms, it can be labelled just what he calls it -"the crisis of spirit we now confront"

tho it strikes me equally as a fragmentation of purpose.
a lack of cohesion

so....do the humanities, as Kronan asserts, tend to promote that cohesion, and so become necessary (justified) at some level.....?

or....lacking "accountabilty" in any economic sense, are they somehow obsolete...."pre-21st century" trivia, without significance to our modern, post industrial civilization?

[clhcpa]

Originally Posted by iltos

so....do the humanities, as Kronan asserts, tend to promote that cohesion, and so become necessary (justified) at some level.....?

or....lacking "accountabilty" in any economic sense, are they somehow obsolete...."pre-21st century" trivia, without significance to our modern, post industrial civilization?

I don't believe that an education in the humanities does not make someone more attractive to a potential employer. I don't mean that if you put on your resume that you are well-versed in the history of Byzantine art it will put you at the top of the list of interview subjects for a job in accounting. But what I do believe is that ANY kind of learning makes you a more well-rounded person. Increasing your knowledge base in any way makes you more adept at problem solving and thinking through issues. IMO reading and learning about a wide variety of subjects increases your ability to communicate - which can, in turn, also enhance your marketability.

[Chicon]

To be a genuine connoisseur of the Roman civilization and to be the tycoon of a big company are not incompatible to me.
While writing about pedagogy, Montaigne said something like this : it's better to have a well done head than a well filled head.

[Knotbored]

Something to consider is that studies other then humanities (math, engineering, manufacturing etc) will in the near future be done almost entirely by machines, computers and robots. Computer experts graduating in my age group (age 68) became obsolete on the mechanics of that trade almost before they graduated. The sucesful ones made use mostly on the human contact part of their education and by joining the additional learning available from groups of like-minded societies.
I think humanity studies will become more (not less) important in guiding future society.

[WendyM]

Originally Posted by clhcpa

But what I do believe is that ANY kind of learning makes you a more well-rounded person. Increasing your knowledge base in any way makes you more adept at problem solving and thinking through issues. IMO reading and learning about a wide variety of subjects increases your ability to communicate - which can, in turn, also enhance your marketability.

I was going to say almost exactly the same thing. In addition, you're in a situation where you have to defend your ideas to people with similar levels of education and interest in the subject, which can be invaluable in a work situation. I have a degree in a "soft" science and I can't tell you the number of times an employer or creditor used it as an example of my ability to complete a goal. My degree has gotten me low interest rates and stable jobs with insanely quick promotions. And it has absolutely nothing to do with any field I've ever worked in. My degree is in social science and my career fields have been finance and technology. Strange, but true. My opinion has always been that it's not the degree, but how you apply it. And I think that will continue to be true.

[iltos]

i was afeared that the humanities wouldn't get much support, so the responses so far have been good to hear.

one thing that occurs to me now is this: if higher education is stuggling with the humanities, it doesn't bode well, imo, for the efforts in the public school system to maintain -sometimes even reinstitute- art and music programs....accountability has a strangle hold on much of cirricula there already.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by iltos

from the nytimes today
http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/?th&emc=th

yes, its a blog on the nytimes site....but the quotes that follow were all written by the author of a piece -an opinion piece, looks like- in the times back in december, based on a report issued by the New York State Commission on higher education



Mr. Fish goes on to itemize some reasons for "the humanities not being a significant part" of "a brave new world in New York higher education" that were posted in the blog (pretty interesting actually, if this topic is interesting to you)

he then generalizes those reasons into a concensus (an accurate one, imo)

Simple answer, Yes!
and this -the idea of justification- is perhaps the central issue in today's world (bias about the humanities being some sort of book of the dead for "liberal thought" aside ....let's try to keep THAT out of THIS, ok? )

it shouldn't be too hard to do, because justification, imo, is all about the return on investment in today's world of higher education....and the author, too, makes this clear


and


at the same time, tho, he brings up this historical perspective which asks a different kind of question about "justification"



i don't know enough history to comment on this one way or the other...but "intellectual and moral habits" struck a chord with me

Mr. Fish has a comment about Kronman's book, tho



personally, i feel Mr. Fish's bias is apparent here....imo, Kronan is not attacking technology per se, he's taking note of what others have already noted -and the song is sung among religious fundamentalists, those complacent about politics, and those who criticize the media for its edutainment, the electonic world for its addictiveness, and globalization for the threat it poses to "our way of life"....among others....in general terms, it can be labelled just what he calls it -"the crisis of spirit we now confront"

tho it strikes me equally as a fragmentation of purpose.
a lack of cohesion

so....do the humanities, as Kronan asserts, tend to promote that cohesion, and so become necessary (justified) at some level.....?

or....lacking "accountabilty" in any economic sense, are they somehow obsolete...."pre-21st century" trivia, without significance to our modern, post industrial civilization?

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by iltos

i was afeared that the humanities wouldn't get much support, so the responses so far have been good to hear.

one thing that occurs to me now is this: if higher education is stuggling with the humanities, it doesn't bode well, imo, for the efforts in the public school system to maintain -sometimes even reinstitute- art and music programs....accountability has a strangle hold on much of cirricula there already.

Lan's not online!

[lotuseclat79]

Without the humanities, our minds would become filled with uncritical hogwash and balderdash!

We need the humanities to remind us of our own humanity and what it means to be human. Unfortuately, we have not learned fully what is and what it can become.

A glimpse within our DNA reveals the interrelationship of all life. Genetic research has not only unveiled the genome, but that all humans alive today have remote ancestors in common and are related by blood - brothers and sisters all - though we hardly have learned to behave as such in the family of mankind.

It may take the natural occurence of the current explosion of Science to fully understand who we are and what possibilities exist for the future when our planet's resources diminish and fresh water becomes the most valuable commodity for all organic life that depends on it for life to survive.

We are all in this together! Human and non-human alike.

-- Tom

[poochee]

Originally Posted by lotuseclat79

Without the humanities, our minds would become filled with uncritical hogwash and balderdash!

We need the humanities to remind us of our own humanity and what it means to be human. Unfortuately, we have not learned fully what is and what it can become.

A glimpse within our DNA reveals the interrelationship of all life. Genetic research has not only unveiled the genome, but that all humans alive today have remote ancestors in common and are related by blood - brothers and sisters all - though we hardly have learned to behave as such in the family of mankind.

It may take the natural occurence of the current explosion of Science to fully understand who we are and what possibilities exist for the future when our planet's resources diminish and fresh water becomes the most valuable commodity for all organic life that depends on it for life to survive.

We are all in this together! Human and non-human alike.

-- Tom

[SlackAli]

Do "the humanities" have educational value?

Absolutely not! I've got a PhD in the sociology of art and culture and I'm a moron.

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by SlackAli

Absolutely not! I've got a PhD in the sociology of art and culture and I'm a moron.

Could be your education has brought you to your senses

[SlackAli]

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Could be your education has brought you to your senses

I thank you kind lady

Doing the humanities - and I'll lump the social sciences in this category for the sake of my argument - when I did, in the late 70s and early 80s, engendered a rather jaundiced view of society, particularly when placed against the contemporary view that learning is solely geared towards producing efficient and compliant workers. Education for its own sake might have been as much of a myth 30 years ago as it appears now, but it was pretty compelling at the time.

Luckily I'm presently in a position where I don't need to work, 'cos I'm otherwise unemployable

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by SlackAli

I thank you kind lady
Education for its own sake might have been as much of a myth 30 years ago as it appears now, but it was pretty compelling at the time.

Ah...but I could have it no other way. I hope I never lose the thirst for educating myself....I am not the best teacher for myself....but then again, when it doesn't produce much, I have no one to blame but me

[Gabriel]

Seems natural to me I would slant in the direction of the humanities having much value.....