[BanditFlyer]

Originally Posted by iltos

i agree with others who have said this is a poignant post, bandit
it promotes this discussion rather than distracting it....

'bout the crab bucket...definately some truth to it....but it forces the question (again) of the promotion of the entire rap/hip hop culture by the entertainment industry

I think the song I was talking about, "Crabuckit"(hope I spelled it right), was actually a rap song. So I'd think that someone like Sarge, who knows the breadth of the hip hop culture, would disagree with you there(because there ARE people "on the inside" who are capable of seeing how their black brothers are trying to keep them down).

Originally Posted by iltos

....it is -right or wrong- what we gringos stereotype as "ghetto culture" from the inner cities, imo.....that "loser", "black enough" culture that you say points to "successful in the white world" blacks as oreos or toms
and yet...at least where i am, it's popularity among white teenagers, while certainly one aspect of that generation's "rebellion", is also due to the fact that it speaks to the truth of their lives, its conflicts and its pride, its pathos and its celebration....and in so doing, dissolves the historical images of race.

Paradoxically, I'm thinking some of the popularity of the music is more due to white angst and a feeling white teenagers have of being oppressed than it is to any actual oppression being foisted upon the black culture (by whites).

It's an "oppress yourself" world now, and the black Klan is responsible for more of the oppression faced by blacks than the traditional Klan is now. Of course, there's also the point Gardner made - that some of it isn't so much oppression as it is superstition/tradition - "My last broker was bald, had a hook nose and a German/Yiddish accent , and he made me a lot of money, so I should look for those traits in my next broker...."

[BanditFlyer]

Jason Whitlock says that the people who killed a famous football star recently(I don't know from football, so forgive me for not remembering his name) are members(as well as victims) of "the Black KKK", a term he uses for blacks that keep other blacks down.

It is my opinion that terms like "Oreo", "Uncle Tom" and others(phrases like "You're not black enough") are nothing more than an attempt by blacks to keep other blacks as far away from what society(whether that society is white society or just our society) has defined as success.

The most recent victim of such slurs is Barack Obama.

What do you think - is there any validity to the terms Oreo, Uncle Tom, etc, or are they nothing more than an attempt to bury one of your own brethren in the hole that you plan to die in yourself?

[BanditFlyer]

My post in a previous thread(about buckets of crabs):

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

It's still an enslaved culture. Just like a lot of the Native Americans on reservations and certain nations where one country forces it's satelite state to speak another language or quarter the soldiers of their oppressors, there is a culture that losers share.

Native Americans tell an allegory of "getting over". The res is like a bucket of crabs -you'll notice that anytime one of the crabs tries to get out, the others all gang up on him to pull him back down. It's a system of teamwork against success. Any individual that tries to succeed is held down sometimes even to the point of death - you'll notice that sometimes the crabs actually tear the arms off of the one that's trying to get out.

Many enslaved nations have similar tales. American Black culture is no different.

[iltos]

well...i messed up, Bandit

i tried to bring a post over from the other thread, but forgot they are inserted chronologically....so your thread starter is now that post....i can't delete it without deleting the entire thread.

wanna start a new thread, and i'll delete this one?

[Knotbored]

I missed whatever prior thread has this discussion- I think its a good one, and TSG members are bright enough to pick up the idea.
Losers of all races look down at anyone that succeeds- sit at a singles bar and listen to all the dating advise from divorcees, sit in the cheap seats at a baseball game and watch the drunks screem "kill the bums" etc.
Blacks and Latinos have used the race issue for an excuse for not being sucessful for so long they overlook the more obvious reasons. The ones that pass race as only one of many other reasons have the same sucess as anyone else. Physique, inteligence, maturity are now all much mose important then race. Race issues still exist-but far less then prior generations and isn't now a significant issue for monetary sucess.

[hannab]

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

I think the song I was talking about, "Crabuckit"(hope I spelled it right), was actually a rap song.

Hmmm, can't be rap...I actually like it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6VrgPMLsiE

"No time to get down cause I'm moving up
Ahh, haa... check out the crabs in the bucket" K-OS

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

Jason Whitlock says that the people who killed a famous football star recently(I don't know from football, so forgive me for not remembering his name) are members(as well as victims) of "the Black KKK", a term he uses for blacks that keep other blacks down.

Sean Taylor

Originally Posted by BanditFlyer

What do you think - is there any validity to the terms Oreo, Uncle Tom, etc, or are they nothing more than an attempt to bury one of your own brethren in the hole that you plan to die in yourself?

I think it can be applied beyond just the "Uncle Tom" scenario....I think sometimes people can't handle when "one of their own" moves on up to a better life or maybe just a different life than the one they have chosen or feel they are trapped in (like the crabs, I quess) It could be a parent that has a child smarter than them or so much more successful that they no longer have things in common - your fear of losing that person could make you belittle their achievements. Or someone who wants more and grows "out" of a relationship...or someone who can't accept the religion, gender, culture, etc that they were born into and seeks something that fits them better.

I do hear certain successful blacks referred to as Uncle Tom's etc....which seem to assume that the person is not being true to themselves, but that may not always be correct - and it also is saying that there is a "black" way to be - presumably different from a "white" way...which just continues to feed the racial divide, IMO.

I found this Blog http://alienryderflex.com/crab_bucket.shtml in regards to the Crab Bucket Tale....I love his Moral to the Story:

"If only the crabs would rejoice in the successful ventures of other crabs, instead of trying to drag each other down — then you would, of course, bring a container with a fastenable lid to your fishing trip, and the crabs would be trapped anyway. And they would still get cooked.

Moral of the story: When you’re screwed, you’re screwed. Adopting a “better attitude” about it isn’t going to help. "

[LauraMJ]

I think it has validity. It seems to me that an overriding reason for this attitude is that as long as they can blame something they cannot possibly change, like their race, then they don't NEED to change anything else. After all, what would be the point to make that effort if the ONE thing (race) is what is really holding one down. Therefore, the losers instinctively want to convince everyone else that if one were truly "black," then they wouldn't be that successful, and if they ARE successful, then they are not truly "black." So that allows them to say "I want to be true to my race" and THAT allows them to blame society for their loser situation instead of putting out the effort to better themselves. If they allow people to see that blacks are just as capable of succeeding in this society as anyone else, then other people will inevitably see them for what they are........un-motivated, lazy losers.