[Wino]

Originally Posted by Stoner

I suspect the bottom will be a lot lower if all those un-affordable social programs the Dems want are applied.

I expect you may be correct, but unless spending is curbed and taxes raised across the board (that won't happen with McCain), we're going down hill IMHO.

[SlackAli]

Originally Posted by Stoner

today I think there are practical limits on what the US can accomplish in the world. .

Which is why, I'd speculate, the rest of the world is trusting the next incumbent at the White House might be more collaborative on these, and other, issues. I'm not holding my breath though.

Originally Posted by Stoner

Practical limits on what can be accomplished internally. too.

Agreed, although I'd frame them as political constraints. The US is not alone in facing the problem of how to make behaviour change to reflect changed material realities

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by Wino

I expect you may be correct, but unless spending is curbed and taxes raised across the board (that won't happen with McCain), we're going down hill IMHO.

Yeah thats exactly what you want to do in a down economy....raise taxes.

You must be the economics adviser for Obama, wanting to raise the capital gains tax....what a friggin idiot.

[SlackAli]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

No what you can't stand is the shoe is on the other foot when it comes to food production. BTW, add Canada to this little party of over producers. Please explain why the US is required to do anything with its food production to benefit anyone else.

Why do you keep talking about production? All I was saying is that US patterns of food consumption are not the solution to the world's food problems. Not a particularly profound observation, and my inherent politeness prevents me expanding on this, so If you really can't grasp it, I give up

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by SlackAli

Why do you keep talking about production? All I was saying is that US patterns of food consumption are not the solution to the world's food problems. Not a particularly profound observation, and my inherent politeness prevents me expanding on this, so If you really can't grasp it, I give up

All right we'll play it your way. What about US consumption would you change?

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by Wino

I expect you may be correct, but unless spending is curbed and taxes raised across the board (that won't happen with McCain), we're going down hill IMHO.

Raising taxes ....this one bothers me going into a recession.
Raise them too much and it restricts economic growth.
Some incentives may be needed to perk up the economy and continuing the tax cuts in the areas that promote spending and development are proven. imo...Bush went too far in some cuts and tried to buy the country into prosperity on debt load. That's a big debt load, today
Curbing spending.......I don't see that happening with either party.

Why worry, be happy


Oh, yeah.... social security and social services funds are shaky .....hmmmm......maybe we could burn the paperwork for those programs for energy

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by Stoner

Raising taxes ....this one bothers me going into a recession.
Raise them too much and it restricts economic growth.
Some incentives may be needed to perk up the economy and continuing the tax cuts in the areas that promote spending and development are proven. imo...Bush went too far in some cuts and tried to buy the country into prosperity on debt load. That's a big debt load, today
Curbing spending.......I don't see that happening with either party.

You cut the capital gains tax which will do more to stimulate the economy than some BS "rebate". Maintain the current tax cuts (somebody please make them permanent) reduce capital gains holding periods or reduce the rate. For reduced spending just maintain current levels without increases for the next four years.

[Littlefield]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

You cut the capital gains tax which will do more to stimulate the economy than some BS "rebate". Maintain the current tax cuts (somebody please make them permanent) reduce capital gains holding periods or reduce the rate. For reduced spending just maintain current levels without increases for the next four years.

Obama does not understand the benefit of capital gains tax reduction or either he is a socialist

[SlackAli]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

All right we'll play it your way. What about US consumption would you change?

You're too kind! I don't want to change anything about US consumption (as long as of course, the rest of the world does not suffer in your rapacious pursuit pursuit of calories). I don't mind if the average American consumer needs a chinook airlift to get from bed to bathroom.

But let's just recognize that within globalisation there's room for cultures which are resistant to this pattern of consumption, whether on ethical, economic or health grounds

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by SlackAli

You're too kind! I don't want to change anything about US consumption (as long as of course, the rest of the world does not suffer in your rapacious pursuit pursuit of calories). I don't mind if the average American consumer needs a chinook airlift to get from bed to bathroom.

But let's just recognize that within globalisation there's room for cultures which are resistant to this pattern of consumption, whether on ethical, economic or health grounds

See you are talking about production. Apparently my point was to obtuse for you. We produce what we eat and market what we don't need. How we choose to use what we produce....including overeating (another media hype) is the prerogative of the US citizen is it not? Do you believe we somehow owe a responsibility to feed the citizens of other nations?

[SlackAli]

Originally Posted by Bastiat

See you are talking about production.

It's only about production in as much as the style of production of food shapes the way it is consumed - "the public wants what the public gets" as Paul Weller once sang - but I didn't think that was your point.

Originally Posted by Bastiat

We produce what we eat and market what we don't need.

So the US does not import any food?

Originally Posted by Bastiat

How we choose to use what we produce....including overeating (another media hype) is the prerogative of the US citizen is it not?

Of course. Within the limits that what is consumed can only chosen from what is sold (whether nationally produced or imported). But surely consumer choice largely stops at the point of purchase and consumption. There is little direct choice consumers can exercise over the way food is produced, at least in the short term, or over what is sold and marketed. So in that respect consumer choice is solely a consumption issue and not related to production

[Bastiat]

Originally Posted by SlackAli

It's only about production in as much as the style of production of food shapes the way it is consumed - "the public wants what the public gets" as Paul Weller once sang - but I didn't think that was your point.

Paul Weller is full of crap, at least when his quote is used to justify food consumption and the style of production.

So the US does not import any food?

Wrong question. The right question: Does it have too?

Of course. Within the limits that what is consumed can only chosen from what is sold (whether nationally produced or imported). But surely consumer choice largely stops at the point of purchase and consumption. There is little direct choice consumers can exercise over the way food is produced, at least in the short term, or over what is sold and marketed. So in that respect consumer choice is solely a consumption issue and not related to production

Maybe in England but in the US the consumer determines what is produced by not purchasing what the consumer doesn't want and what the consumer does.....and that's short term and long term. In the US producers of food products will pay grocery store
chains for shelf space. The reason is that there is so much competition and so much choice for the consumer that any new product has to pay to get their product in front of the consumer. Now if the food company produces a product that the consumer doesn't want how long do you think is stays on the shelf? This has a direct impact on how the food is produced.

[LuckyStrike]

In reality, the cost of wheat in a loaf of bread or in a box of pasta is actually only a very small part of the final retail cost.

The farm value of the wheat in a loaf of bread is estimated to be about 20 cents at this season's average wheat price of nearly $8.00 per bushel. A year ago, it was roughly 12 cents. On a percentage basis, as frequently cited by baking industry spokespersons, the increase appears to be more significant - but as the example illustrates - is vastly overstated in its real impact on the real cost to the consumer. The actual 8 cent per loaf increase pales in comparison to other escalating costs related mostly to energy and transportation which farmers, bakers and all basic industries have experienced. In the case of pasta, the numbers are roughly the same. The actual cost of durum in a one pound package of pasta, even at today's higher prices is still only 20 to 30 cents of the $1.50 per package store-shelf cost paid by the consumer. A year ago this was roughly 12 to 15 cents.

More than 80 percent of the retail cost of a loaf of bread or a box of pasta is attributable to transportation, processing, marketing, packaging and labor costs. These are the primary factors currently increasing consumer costs. To put this in its proper perspective, a family consuming one loaf of bread and one box of pasta per week would incur an additional annual outlay of roughly $20 per year due to the increased cost of wheat and durum in the finished product.

http://www.ndwheat.com/growers/detail.asp?newsID=1209

I can tell you that up until and including 2005 the prices paid at local grain elevators for corn, wheat, and soybeans was approximately the same as was paid in 1975. Since 2005 the prices paid at local grain elevators for corn, wheat, and soybeans have approximately doubled. During the same period the prices farmers pay for fuel, nitrogen fertilizers, potash, herbicides, pesticides, and hybrid seed have tripled or quadrupled.

At the root of increased input costs is the price of oil. There in turn may be many factors involved in the rising cost of oil.

Production of grains and oil seeds in the U.S. and Canada has not declined. There are fluctuations in supply from year to year, of course, due to factors of weather, but productivity has continually increased over time, and continues to increase. The tight supply and demand situation is due primarily to an explosion in world wide demand.

[LuckyStrike]

The corn flakes example:

An 18-ounce box of corn flakes contains 12.9 ounces of milled field corn.

When field corn is priced at $2.28 per bushel, the 20-year average, the actual value of corn in the box is about 3.3 cents. At $3.40 per bushel, the average price in 2007, the value was about 4.9 cents. The 49 percent increase in corn prices would be expected to increase the price of the box of corn flakes by about 1.6 cents, or 0.5 percent. (Source: USDA)

http://www.ksgrains.com/kcc/talkingpts.html

[LuckyStrike]

In recent weeks, ethanol has been accused of driving up the price of everything from chicken to ice cream. While this may make for eye-grabbing headlines, these accusations are overly simplistic and ignore the real economic factors affecting rising food prices.

The fact is that energy prices are the main cause. This should come as no surprise, since energy is the cornerstone of our economy. Oil prices have risen more than 30 per cent this year alone and this increase is driving all commodity prices up. Much of what we eat travels hundreds or thousands of kilometres to our dinner tables. The diesel-driven tractors in the field, the container ships on the ocean and the transport trucks that deliver food to your local grocery store all require expensive energy.

Recent reports indicate that we could soon see $100 a barrel for oil as supplies tighten due to global demand and dwindling reserves. A large component of this global demand can be attributed to unprecedented economic growth in China and India. In fact, many commodity prices, including copper, aluminum and palm oil have been rising steadily given the demand from these two countries. So why would food be immune to this global demand phenomenon?

http://bluemarbleclimate.wordpress.c...onshine-fuels/