[ekim68]

Originally Posted by Gabriel

That is like separating a ten foot section of six strand embroidery thread into six ten foot strands....then figuring out how to put it back together

That's because you're involved.....

[linskyjack]

Originally Posted by Gabriel

I don't understand....what designates hate of the military, and what does that have to do with the very, to me depressing thread about the death count?
And what does neo-con have to do with it?
I am really confused here....am I the only one?

Its not that complex. What we know:

1. This war was trumped up by the Neo-Cons in order to test a failed geo-political theory---they call it Democracy Building. It had nothing to do with protecting the homeland or any real threat from Sadaam Hussein.
2. You don't build democracies among people who have thousand year feuds, each thinking that they and only they no the path the righteousness.
3. Thousands of AMERICAN SERVICEMEN have been killed and maimed as a result of this fake war.

What conclusion can you draw about those among the radical right that ignore reality and continue to follow a policy of lies and distortion that results in the further killing of our service people? The only rational conclusion one can draw is that although they love to wave the flag and send care packages to the troops, deep in their dark souls they really don't care whether they live or die.

[poochee]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Its not that complex. What we know:

1. This war was trumped up by the Neo-Cons in order to test a failed geo-political theory---they call it Democracy Building. It had nothing to do with protecting the homeland or any real threat from Sadaam Hussein.
2. You don't build democracies among people who have thousand year feuds, each thinking that they and only they no the path the righteousness.
3. Thousands of AMERICAN SERVICEMEN have been killed and maimed as a result of this fake war.

What conclusion can you draw about those among the radical right that ignore reality and continue to follow a policy of lies and distortion that results in the further killing of our service people? The only rational conclusion one can draw is that although they love to wave the flag and send care packages to the troops, deep in their dark souls they really don't care whether they live or die.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Think about it---these are the only people left in this country who are willing to use US troops as fodder in a war to liberate people who hate each other!

People who hate eachother...and you are referring to who exactly or are you generalizing?

[linskyjack]

Let me break it down for you:

Shia vs Sunnis
Sects of Shia's vs other sects of Shias
Kurds vs Sunnis
Kurds vs Shia

I wont even go into the tribal divisions.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Rep

I have often thought about that as well. Lots of armchair warriors out there. You would think we would reward our policy makers for asking questions before we commit our troops to battle.

But no, if you ask questions, you are branded unpatriotic and a terrorist lover. It's going to be interesting how th U.S. develops in the next ten years or so.

Rep, I would expect you of all people, being a politician, not to fall into this type of generalization of a group of people. Yes, protest the war. Yes, disagree with the Bush Administration. Yes, call for our troops to come home. But an unfair generalization and stereotype of a whole society of individuals? Not something I expect from you.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Let me break it down for you:

Shia vs Sunnis
Sects of Shia's vs other sects of Shias
Kurds vs Sunnis
Kurds vs Shia

I wont even go into the tribal divisions.

You dont have to break anything down to me...I know and let me give you a little clue. There are many Shia, Sunnis and
Kurds living peacefully amongst eachother.
So let me break it down to you.

In certain parts of America you have...

blacks vs whites
blacks vs blacks
hispanics vs hispanics
hispanics vs blacks
whites vs hispanics
Italians vs blacks
whites vs chinese
italians vs chinese

I wont even go into the police departments.

[linskyjack]

Oh yes, they just adore each other! Sarge, you are so out of touch. By the way Sarge, since your buddy won't answer the question, will you please tell us how many Iraqis have been killed since we invaded, and how many have become refugees. Also, can you tell us why in any poll ever taken in Iraq, the VAST majority of them dont want us there. I guess you know better then the Iraqi people, the same one's we are shedding innocent American blood for.

[poochee]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Oh yes, they just adore each other! Sarge, you are so out of touch. By the way Sarge, since your buddy won't answer the question, will you please tell us how many Iraqis have been killed since we invaded, and how many have become refugees. Also, can you tell us why in any poll ever taken in Iraq, the VAST majority of them dont want us there. I guess you know better then the Iraqi people, the same one's we are shedding innocent American blood for.

Many people don't understand, or even know, about the religious aspect of this and how strong they are.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Oh yes, they just adore each other! Sarge, you are so out of touch. By the way Sarge, since your buddy won't answer the question, will you please tell us how many Iraqis have been killed since we invaded, and how many have become refugees. Also, can you tell us why in any poll ever taken in Iraq, the VAST majority of them dont want us there. I guess you know better then the Iraqi people, the same one's we are shedding innocent American blood for.

I am out of touch. It is you who is blinded by hatred for the Bush administration that you refuse to acknowledge any peaceful inhabitants in the Middle East, specifically Iraq. So what you are saying is there are no Shia, Sunni and Kurds living peacefully amongst eachother? I know you will not answer that question because the answer is YES and you would have to take back your statement that they ALL hate eachother. You are making a generalization of an entire people.

As to how many Iraqi civilian have died. I am not afraid to answer your question and I wont even try to rationalize it because I think it is a horrible thing. Before I do...KNOW THIS. I am not on anyone side of the fence! I am not for or against Republicans or Democrats and I could care less about party affiliation. My concern is for the American public. I am not blinded by hatred. I can see both sides of a story. I have been to Iraq more times than I wished. I have seen the carnage, destruction and death from all angles. I have also seen lives saved, schools and hospitals built. Shias, Sunnis and Kurds walking with eachother holding hands as in their tradition of friendship! Can you say the same? The number of Iraqi civilians who have died according to...

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

is an estimated 83,221-90,782

Also according to http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf

Table 1. Annual or Total Iraqi Civilian Deaths Estimates
Iraq Body Count
March 19, 2003 - March 10, 2008
81,874 - 89,353

Iraq Coalition Casualty Count
March 1, 2005 - March 10, 2008
40,662

Brookings Iraq Index
May 2003 - February 2008
103,567
The Associated Press
April 2005 - February 13, 2008
31,245 dead
35,436 wounded

The Iraq Family Health Study (the “WHO study”)
March 2003 - June 2006
151,000

The Lancet, “Mortality after the 2003 Invasion of Iraq”
March 19, 2003 - July 31, 2006
426,369 - 793,663

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Sarge

I am out of touch. It is you who is blinded by hatred for the Bush administration that you refuse to acknowledge any peaceful inhabitants in the Middle East, specifically Iraq. So what you are saying is there are no Shia, Sunni and Kurds living peacefully amongst eachother? I know you will not answer that question because the answer is YES and you would have to take back your statement that they ALL hate eachother. You are making a generalization of an entire people.

As to how many Iraqi civilian have died. I am not afraid to answer your question and I wont even try to rationalize it because I think it is a horrible thing. Before I do...KNOW THIS. I am not on anyone side of the fence! I am not for or against Republicans or Democrats and I could care less about party affiliation. My concern is for the American public. I am not blinded by hatred. I can see both sides of a story. I have been to Iraq more times than I wished. I have seen the carnage, destruction and death from all angles. I have also seen lives saved, schools and hospitals built. Shias, Sunnis and Kurds walking with eachother holding hands as in their tradition of friendship! Can you say the same? The number of Iraqi civilians who have died according to...

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

is an estimated 83,221-90,782

sarge, your's is one of the few voices of reason here, imo.....unafraid to look at the good and the bad in this "effort" of ours, or to share the sadness, the regret, or the hope.

a lot of us, imo, whether we favor the particulars of your viewpoint or not, understand that there is the inescapable logic of experience in your words, and the unforgettable chaos of truth.

it's time for me to say this....i salute you, man

[valley]

What gets me the most about the opposition to the war is that what you are essentially doing is saying "Who cares about the oppressed people over there. Its not my problem." You care more about the politics of this war than you do about the men women and children who are glad that we are there....dont they mean anything? Should they be sacrificed so our troops can come home and continue to live the american dream, which I tell ya, is a whole lot better than the lives they live over there. How would you like it if American soldiers broke down your door and killed you on the spot for speaking out against our government or for calling Bush an idiot? You cant even fathom it happening because you take freedom for granted. Its not a crime to want other people to have the same freedoms that I do.

[valley]

Originally Posted by iltos

sarge, your's is one of the few voices of reason here, imo.....unafraid to look at the good and the bad in this "effort" of ours, or to share the sadness, the regret, or the hope.

a lot of us, imo, whether we favor the particulars of your viewpoint or not, understand that there is the inescapable logic of experience in your words, and the unforgettable chaos of truth.

it's time for me to say this....i salute you, man

Thats a ditto for me too Sarge. I have a great deal of respect for you.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by valley

What gets me the most about the opposition to the war is that what you are essentially doing is saying "Who cares about the oppressed people over there. Its not my problem." You care more about the politics of this war than you do about the men women and children who are glad that we are there....dont they mean anything?

well again....i personally don't feel that what is called all "the negativity" re: this effort is true, tho i'd agree that there is a lot of politics involved in the saying of it....

i don't necessarily see that as a bad thing....the freedoms that we have, the ones we cherish, are predicated on the reality that we are the political animal that steers this country....

to question the motives of our government has become popular, and in some ways, far too easy of a way to dissapate our anger or frustration...in this, the right may be onto something.....

but a blind acceptance/support of those motives is equally as irresponsible, imo.....

both points of view have contributed to this divide, and it's fair to ask, i believe, what (and who's) purpose it serves, even as we rant about our justifications for it.

[linskyjack]

Originally Posted by valley

What gets me the most about the opposition to the war is that what you are essentially doing is saying "Who cares about the oppressed people over there. Its not my problem." You care more about the politics of this war than you do about the men women and children who are glad that we are there....dont they mean anything? Should they be sacrificed so our troops can come home and continue to live the american dream, which I tell ya, is a whole lot better than the lives they live over there. How would you like it if American soldiers broke down your door and killed you on the spot for speaking out against our government or for calling Bush an idiot? You cant even fathom it happening because you take freedom for granted. Its not a crime to want other people to have the same freedoms that I do.

No, I care more about the blood shed by American citizens. Valley, if you really care about the oppressed so much, why haven't you called for the invasion of the Sudan, or a host of other hot spots in the world where innocent people are being killed?