[linskyjack]

Originally Posted by Sarge

I am out of touch. It is you who is blinded by hatred for the Bush administration that you refuse to acknowledge any peaceful inhabitants in the Middle East, specifically Iraq. So what you are saying is there are no Shia, Sunni and Kurds living peacefully amongst eachother? I know you will not answer that question because the answer is YES and you would have to take back your statement that they ALL hate eachother. You are making a generalization of an entire people.

As to how many Iraqi civilian have died. I am not afraid to answer your question and I wont even try to rationalize it because I think it is a horrible thing. Before I do...KNOW THIS. I am not on anyone side of the fence! I am not for or against Republicans or Democrats and I could care less about party affiliation. My concern is for the American public. I am not blinded by hatred. I can see both sides of a story. I have been to Iraq more times than I wished. I have seen the carnage, destruction and death from all angles. I have also seen lives saved, schools and hospitals built. Shias, Sunnis and Kurds walking with eachother holding hands as in their tradition of friendship! Can you say the same? The number of Iraqi civilians who have died according to...

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

is an estimated 83,221-90,782

Also according to http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf

Table 1. Annual or Total Iraqi Civilian Deaths Estimates
Iraq Body Count
March 19, 2003 - March 10, 2008
81,874 - 89,353

Iraq Coalition Casualty Count
March 1, 2005 - March 10, 2008
40,662

Brookings Iraq Index
May 2003 - February 2008
103,567
The Associated Press
April 2005 - February 13, 2008
31,245 dead
35,436 wounded

The Iraq Family Health Study (the “WHO study”)
March 2003 - June 2006
151,000

The Lancet, “Mortality after the 2003 Invasion of Iraq”
March 19, 2003 - July 31, 2006
426,369 - 793,663

What does this have to do with peaceful inhabitants of the Middle East? I get it, our job as a nation is to make sure that all peaceful inhabitants of the Middle East receive our protection. Hey Sarge, what about peaceful inhabitants of Africa? What about peacful inhabitants of South Asia? What about the peaceful inhabitants of South America---


Shall we invade? I got it, we can make up more stories about weapons of mass destruction and the threat on the homeland and invade everywhere!

[Littlefield]

Just wait ,if Obama is President it will happen .Rev Wright will tell him it is OK

[valley]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

No, I care more about the blood shed by American citizens. Valley, if you really care about the oppressed so much, why haven't you called for the invasion of the Sudan, or a host of other hot spots in the world where innocent people are being killed?

who says I havent?

Its just that no one listens to me!

I remember being so upset and outraged when the Tutsi people were wiped out in Rwanda. The Clintons showed up afterwards and made a polite speech expressing their condolences and support and then they trotted right back onto their plane and away they went....I only wish Clinton had had the guts to do something about it. Almost a million people murdered....

Dont think for a moment that I dont care about the oppressed. I'd like to see more being done to help people in other countries...but that would make me even more evil in your eyes, wouldnt it?

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by iltos

sarge, your's is one of the few voices of reason here, imo.....unafraid to look at the good and the bad in this "effort" of ours, or to share the sadness, the regret, or the hope.

a lot of us, imo, whether we favor the particulars of your viewpoint or not, understand that there is the inescapable logic of experience in your words, and the unforgettable chaos of truth.

it's time for me to say this....i salute you, man

Originally Posted by valley

Thats a ditto for me too Sarge. I have a great deal of respect for you.

I am humbled, thankyou.

[Sarge]

Heres a summary to help you out Linsky.

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Think about it---these are the only people left in this country who are willing to use US troops as fodder in a war to liberate people who hate each other!

Originally Posted by Sarge

People who hate eachother...and you are referring to who exactly or are you generalizing?

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Let me break it down for you:

Shia vs Sunnis
Sects of Shia's vs other sects of Shias
Kurds vs Sunnis
Kurds vs Shia

I wont even go into the tribal divisions.

Originally Posted by Sarge

You dont have to break anything down to me...I know and let me give you a little clue. There are many Shia, Sunnis and
Kurds living peacefully amongst eachother.
So let me break it down to you.

In certain parts of America you have...

blacks vs whites
blacks vs blacks
hispanics vs hispanics
hispanics vs blacks
whites vs hispanics
Italians vs blacks
whites vs chinese
italians vs chinese

I wont even go into the police departments.

Originally Posted by linskyjack

Oh yes, they just adore each other! Sarge, you are so out of touch. By the way Sarge, since your buddy won't answer the question, will you please tell us how many Iraqis have been killed since we invaded, and how many have become refugees. Also, can you tell us why in any poll ever taken in Iraq, the VAST majority of them dont want us there. I guess you know better then the Iraqi people, the same one's we are shedding innocent American blood for.

Originally Posted by Sarge

I am out of touch. It is you who is blinded by hatred for the Bush administration that you refuse to acknowledge any peaceful inhabitants in the Middle East, specifically Iraq. So what you are saying is there are no Shia, Sunni and Kurds living peacefully amongst eachother? I know you will not answer that question because the answer is YES and you would have to take back your statement that they ALL hate eachother. You are making a generalization of an entire people.

As to how many Iraqi civilian have died. I am not afraid to answer your question and I wont even try to rationalize it because I think it is a horrible thing. Before I do...KNOW THIS. I am not on anyone side of the fence! I am not for or against Republicans or Democrats and I could care less about party affiliation. My concern is for the American public. I am not blinded by hatred. I can see both sides of a story. I have been to Iraq more times than I wished. I have seen the carnage, destruction and death from all angles. I have also seen lives saved, schools and hospitals built. Shias, Sunnis and Kurds walking with eachother holding hands as in their tradition of friendship! Can you say the same? The number of Iraqi civilians who have died according to...

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

is an estimated 83,221-90,782

Also according to http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf

Table 1. Annual or Total Iraqi Civilian Deaths Estimates
Iraq Body Count
March 19, 2003 - March 10, 2008
81,874 - 89,353

Iraq Coalition Casualty Count
March 1, 2005 - March 10, 2008
40,662

Brookings Iraq Index
May 2003 - February 2008
103,567
The Associated Press
April 2005 - February 13, 2008
31,245 dead
35,436 wounded

The Iraq Family Health Study (the “WHO study”)
March 2003 - June 2006
151,000

The Lancet, “Mortality after the 2003 Invasion of Iraq”
March 19, 2003 - July 31, 2006
426,369 - 793,663

Originally Posted by linskyjack

What does this have to do with peaceful inhabitants of the Middle East? I get it, our job as a nation is to make sure that all peaceful inhabitants of the Middle East receive our protection. Hey Sarge, what about peaceful inhabitants of Africa? What about peacful inhabitants of South Asia? What about the peaceful inhabitants of South America---


Shall we invade? I got it, we can make up more stories about weapons of mass destruction and the threat on the homeland and invade everywhere!

Linsky, you must post so much rhetoric that you forget what the heck you are debating about? Dont you remember how this started? Let me try to help you out.
Do you recall any of this or did you bump your head somewhere earlier? How about you just refer to the big red bold letters in my quote above.

[Fidelista]

Originally Posted by valley

who says I havent?

Its just that no one listens to me!

I remember being so upset and outraged when the Tutsi people were wiped out in Rwanda. The Clintons showed up afterwards and made a polite speech expressing their condolences and support and then they trotted right back onto their plane and away they went....I only wish Clinton had had the guts to do something about it. Almost a million people murdered....

Dont think for a moment that I dont care about the oppressed. I'd like to see more being done to help people in other countries...but that would make me even more evil in your eyes, wouldnt it?

I agree the U.S. should join with the community of nations to help stop suffering and bloodshed , and sometimes military action is called for ,but that is not our national reason for being !.

Sometimes I wonder how many wars you folks would have going --if you had your way .
I suppose we would take military action all over the world until we were exhausted and defeated ?.
I really believe you are thinking as though we should rule the world through warfare.
It , IMO anyway , was NEVER the purpose of our Govt to take responsibilty for every nations actions , use military means to force all to virtue --in our eyes .
Besides all of that , you do know that constant war will bankraupt the nation , lead to opportunities for our adversaries ,and likely defeat in the end ? .
This is not what our military is for -- to make foreign nations citizens -happy . They are there to protect our nation and our critical interests .

Let me quote JFK's words , and you really should think about them >f
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We must face that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, that we are only 6% of the world's population , that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind , that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity , and that therefore , there cannot be a American solution to every world problem"

[linskyjack]

Originally Posted by Fidelista

I agree the U.S. should join with the community of nations to help stop suffering and bloodshed , and sometimes military action is called for ,but that is not our national reason for being !.

Sometimes I wonder how many wars you folks would have going --if you had your way .
I suppose we would take military action all over the world until we were exhausted and defeated ?.
I really believe you are thinking as though we should rule the world through warfare.
It , IMO anyway , was NEVER the purpose of our Govt to take responsibilty for every nations actions , use military means to force all to virtue --in our eyes .
Besides all of that , you do know that constant war will bankraupt the nation , lead to opportunities for our adversaries ,and likely defeat in the end ? .
This is not what our military is for -- to make foreign nations citizens -happy . They are there to protect our nation and our critical interests .

Let me quote JFK's words , and you really should think about them >f
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We must face that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, that we are only 6% of the world's population , that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind , that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity , and that therefore , there cannot be a American solution to every world problem"

They would probably have about forty going at a time!

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by Littlefield

Just wait ,if Obama is President it will happen .Rev Wright will tell him it is OK

And if McClone wins, Bush will tell him what to do?

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Fidelista

I agree the U.S. should join with the community of nations to help stop suffering and bloodshed , and sometimes military action is called for ,but that is not our national reason for being !.

Sometimes I wonder how many wars you folks would have going --if you had your way

me, too

[linskyjack]

McBush!

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by iltos

me, too

Me three!

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by linskyjack

They would probably have about forty going at a time!

That is actually funny LJ, if it weren't so sad

[linskyjack]

Gabriel, the funny thing is that the right wing was always the last go get into foreign entanglements---That was before this administration and the perversion of conservative principles. Now I hear all these wingers wanting to go all over the world to save the oppressed! Quite a turn of events, and if you ask me, there is something entirely different going on.

[valley]

Originally Posted by Fidelista

I agree the U.S. should join with the community of nations to help stop suffering and bloodshed , and sometimes military action is called for ,but that is not our national reason for being !.


Let me quote JFK's words , and you really should think about them >f
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We must face that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, that we are only 6% of the world's population , that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind , that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity , and that therefore , there cannot be a American solution to every world problem"

I never said it was our "national reason for being".
I also never said we needed to step into every altercation outside of the USA. I cited a specific example of an event that we should have taken action against, and didnt....JFK's words were not spoken so they could be used as a future rationalization for ignoring the genocide of almost a million people. We could have been the solution that helped saved hundreds of thousands of lives in Rwanda but Clinton wasnt interested. Well...not until it came time for a photo op with the survivors, anyways.

[bassetman]

Originally Posted by valley

I never said it was our "national reason for being".
I also never said we needed to step into every altercation outside of the USA. I cited a specific example of an event that we should have taken action again, and didnt....JFK's words were not spoken so they could be used as a future rationalization for ignoring the genocide of almost a million people. We could have been the solution that helped saved hundreds of thousands of lives in Rwanda but Clinton wasnt interested. Well...not until it came time for a photo op with the survivors, anyways.

And what about all the GOP carp he took for helping Bosnia?