[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by Blackmirror

The people of Iraq are free are they

Wake up
No they have soldiers everywhere

Why

You wanted the oil ???

Was it ever about freeing the people from tyranny

sorry but no it wasnt ........

So how come we don't have it?

And even assuming we wanted the oil--for sake of argument let's say that's exactly the reason we invaded Iraq, what difference does it make if the children you are so worried about are no longer starving? Or are you claiming that more children are now starving than before the invasion?

The problem with a lot of you people is you don't know the facts--you don't know anything about what was as compared to what is--you didnt' give a damn about children starving in Iraq in 1997--why is it so important now?

Its important because it serves people's political agendas.--its serves as ammunition to the "anti-American/anti-war" crowd.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by Blackmirror

The people of Iraq are free are they

Wake up
No they have soldiers everywhere

The difference now is the soldiers aren't raping and killing them! Women can go to college and aren't treated like slaves. There's food for babies.

Do you even know anything about what Iraq was like before as compared to now? Seriously--do you know?

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Mulderator

So then how do you factor all that stuff in for the civilians killed after the war? Tell me how Linsky or you or anyone else can competently claim that "X" amount of civilians have died because of the war?

i have never made any such claim....just to be clear.

That's the whole point here--

no....that's not the whole point.....it is just you scratching the surface patina of your love for this county.....the whole point is that your grasping for a "number" to give factual basis for your outrage that anybody who believes in this country as much as you do could feel that the reasons for this war, and it's death toll, are forever linked in shame.

and your outrage has blinded you to the very many "liberal" people who are capable of acknowledging the hope that our presence in iraq has given some iraqis, and the fact that our young men and woman -the living and dead- have served their country with honor.....but that these same "liberal" people have a right to draw attention to the fact while that these soldiers are fighting for everyone's freedom, they are in harms way because of our government's policy decisions, which are not so easily identified as noble

You can't have your cake and eat it too

ain't even close to what i'm about with this whole dang "count" thing, mulder

[Blackmirror]

Well through the eyes of an ordinary Iraqi

Actually, as I'm writing this post now, I can hear the sounds of the bullets while the jet fighters and helicopters are flying over my house ...I'm expecting a curfew in all Baghdad soon.
Is it the beginning of the era of Shiite-Shiite conflicts? Does this prove that it's not about sect or religion? Does this prove that it's all about interests and benefits?
I'll update this post when anything happens.

http://last-of-iraqis.blogspot.com/2...-has-been.html


Does anyone ever stop and think what life is like for Iraqis now

The war has been over for how long??

When can these people sleep at night

Feck the politics its all ********

[Blackmirror]

http://thewomaniwasblog.blogspot.com...iberation.html

Take a look

The first two photos are Iraqi female students in 1963-1964; the third photo is Iraqi female students in 2006!! In other words the Iraqi women before and after "liberation"…

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Mulderator

I thanked him for his service to America and the results in Iraq. I never made any correlation betweent he 0 deaths in America and his service--in fact, that's GB's statistic (which I credit him for) not mine.

ahh...my mistake then...i apologize.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by Blackmirror

Well through the eyes of an ordinary Iraqi




http://last-of-iraqis.blogspot.com/2...-has-been.html


Does anyone ever stop and think what life is like for Iraqis now

The war has been over for how long??

When can these people sleep at night

Feck the politics its all ********

What its like now compared to what? You've got one person's diary (from when--now or two days after the war started?)

Again--what do you think a Londoner's perspective would have been during the bombings in WWII?

And you never answered my question--would you as a mother preferred your sons or daughters grew up in an Iraq where Hussein was in power or Iraq now?

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by iltos

i have never made any such claim....just to be clear.



no....that's not the whole point.....it is just you scratching the surface patina of your love for this county.....the whole point is that your grasping for a "number" to give factual basis for your outrage that anybody who believes in this country as much as you do could feel that the reasons for this war, and it's death toll, are forever linked in shame.

and your outrage has blinded you to the very many "liberal" people who are capable of acknowledging the hope that our presence in iraq has given some iraqis, and the fact that our young men and woman -the living and dead- have served their country with honor.....but that these same "liberal" people have a right to draw attention to the fact while that these soldiers are fighting for everyone's freedom, they are in harms way because of our government's policy decisions, which are not so easily identified as noble

First I am not outraged. Second, I have absolutely no problem with war dissenters, I have a problem with people who claim to be concerned about the military and the soldiers that have died when all they really are concerned with is trying to villainize Bush. You don't approve of the war, do you? Niether does Stoner--I don't see either of you "counting the dead" and in bold red numbers no less. Let's not pretend here--we all know why the counting is going on and it has nothing to do with concern for the military.

WHY THE CONCERN ONLY FOR IRAQ SOLIDERS AND NOWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD?

Originally Posted by iltos

ain't even close to what i'm about with this whole dang "count" thing, mulder

I know exactly what your point is--you simply miss the point of why I post what I post--its NOT to prove that lives were saved--I don't claim the numbers are credible--the whole point is to show the logical fallacies that stupid liberals are forever engaged in. Again, anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty can see exactly the logical fallacy of focusing on Iraq after the war only.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by Blackmirror

http://thewomaniwasblog.blogspot.com...iberation.html

Take a look

The first two photos are Iraqi female students in 1963-1964; the third photo is Iraqi female students in 2006!! In other words the Iraqi women before and after "liberation"…

LOL! That's Iraqi women before Hussein. And do you really think that America is forcing women to be cloaked from head to toe! Seriously--every American GI there would prefer these women to be dressed in bikinis!!!

What this shows me is you know nothing about Iraq pre-invasion. Here are those same women that had their pictures taken in 1964 and what happened to them after Hussein took over (you'll have trouble recognizing them). this is the Eutopia your liberal media led you to believe existed before the war.

[Mulderator]

Here's more of the "Eutopian" pre-war Iraq you:

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Mulderator

First I am not outraged.

hmmm....that's not the sense i got when you first started posting in poochee's thread

Second, I have absolutely no problem with war dissenters

well.....maybe

I have a problem with people who claim to be concerned about the military and the soldiers that have died when all they really are concerned with is trying to villainize Bush.......WHY THE CONCERN ONLY FOR IRAQ SOLIDERS AND NOWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD?

i guess we'll have to build our fence here, then, mulder....seems clear as a bell to me

Originally Posted by iltos

....that anybody who believes in this country as much as you do could feel that the reasons for this war, and it's death toll, are forever linked in shame.

to call that the villainization of bush is a gross oversimplification, imo.....it's really about this country, and how it's principles relate to its operations.

Again, anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty can see exactly the logical fallacy of focusing on Iraq after the war only.

but then, by your own admission, intellectual honesty is not the supreme high commander when it comes to driving a point home, now, is it?

falls under the heading of having your cake and eating it too, seems like.

[Mulderator]

Ok--this liberal crock of {tsk, tsk, mulder....you know better than that} that you people have been fed by the media is a complete distortion--and that's the point I am trying to make to people who simply refuse to see the truth. Iraq is certainly no paradise today, but what it was pre-invasion was far worse than what it is today. Today you have millions of people returning to Iraq who fled the country when Hussein was in power. People there now have a future when they had none before the invasion.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by iltos

hmmm....that's not the sense i got when you first started posting in poochee's thread

I was angry at that time with the complete disregard for pleas from Sarge for some sort of compromise. To me the thread was a waste--not even worth the time, but that just blew me away the woman is so consumed by hatred of George Bush that she'd continue to post a thread she knows is useless for anything other than pi$$ing people off. I thought she should have at least considered some compromise. Remember the thread's been here for years and mostly ignored.

[Mulderator]

Originally Posted by iltos

but then, by your own admission, intellectual honesty is not the supreme high commander when it comes to driving a point home, now, is it?

falls under the heading of having your cake and eating it too, seems like.

Big difference--my intention is to expose the logical fallacy, not promote it. The reason I am promoting mine (same as GB) is to illustrate the fallacy with the exact same fallacy but used for the opposite purpose. I wouldn't be promoting lives saved if others weren't counting the dead.

[iltos]

Originally Posted by Mulderator

I was angry at that time with the complete disregard for pleas from Sarge for some sort of compromise. To me the thread was a waste--not even worth the time, but that just blew me away the woman is so consumed by hatred of George Bush that she'd continue to post a thread she knows is useless for anything other than pi$$ing people off. I thought she should have at least considered some compromise. Remember the thread's been here for years and mostly ignored.

blame me then....i argued for leaving it open, and in CD....both you and she wanted it moved.....i thought it ALL needed to be heard.
i'm looking at this now as evidence that all these spin off threads are really about grief as much as anything....

sure, there are plenty of folks who have no doubt whatsoever that we're in iraq doing america's work, and it's all as it should be....

but -regardless of where you stand- you cannot help but feel the loss.